I am one of many who knows the absurdity in believing in invisible men in the sky, angels, mysticism, religion etc...

A few years ago I wrote a paper on why religion is so bad, and how its always been a cause of destruction and death all throughout history... But, I've recently begun to see that people need religion.

It brings a sense of meaning and comfort to their lives. People cannot explain things, so they make up gods, and think of the gods as creators, therefore answering their previously unexplained questions...

People don't want to believe that when they die, they merely poof *snaps finger* out of existence...They don't want to believe that when they die, they cease thinking, cease being... So instead they believe in heaven. Think about it, which would you rather have? Would you rather poof into nothingness? Or would you rather merely go to a new place when you die, a place filled with virgins and chocolate and where you could play cards with Albert Einstein, etc... Well that's a no brainer- we'd all like to believe that. We'd all like to believe it so much that people do believe it, just because its easier than accepting death. So, I don't think that's a bad thing, as long as they find comfort in believing this.

Another thing, religion helps people go by moral values. It is a disciplinary ideal. People think "oh, if I do something wrong, I go to hell," and thus, decide not to kill that woman, decide not to rob that bank, etc etc...

And for those of you who would prove religion and gods and mysticism false if you could, think about it. Would you really deprive these people of their comfort? Their willingness to follow laws? What if you did succeed, and everyone who believes in religion suddenly stops believing? There would be worldwide chaos. People wouldn't know what to go do with themselves. People would run amock lawlessly. It would destroy our society...

People don't need religon. Nope not at all. I personally think religon is a bunch of hoo-hah ludacrous. Though, it depends on the person, and their beliefs. So what I think maybe totally different to how someone else views this.

yes, it is a bunch of ludacrous hoo ha, but thats not the point. It brings comfort to people to believe in a god. Whena religious person's life sucks, they find it a lot easier to say "God wants this to happen" or "my life was meant to suck right now, there is a divine purpose/destiny behind it"... much easier for them than saying "my life sucks because i'm a 30 year old fat man living with my parents with no job"...

Actually it could be bad, because they sit there and say all this 'god wanted it this way' stuff, and they are only kidding themselves, it could ruin their lives, and they become all paranoid and super-religous, and can't walk 5 seconds without reading the bible.

Well, obviously i'm not talking about the uber fanatics. As long as the religion doesn't affect important, real life matters such as politics, government (which unfortunately it does so you might consider my argument invalid...) its ok. But, as far as the individual is concerned, religion as a source of comfort isn't a bad thing.

Well, a person doesn't NEED religion, but it will always exist. The real options involve which religions to have around.

In a void of religion, if a person is in pain/doubt/etc they are looking for something to make them feel better. To give them meaning. Religion does this. If there were no large religions, we would have cults that would spring up, usually just to take advantage of those people's grief and hurt them more. The advantage of big/old relgions is that they have a harder time being purely profit based. The problem with big/old religions is that they still CAN be profit based or cause fanaticism and violence.

It is not "Religion" per say but the specific beliefs found in those religions that cause this problem.

Specifically, these are the traits that I have noticed that allow a religion to be a cause/excuse for murder, violence and general corruption:

1. Demands of faith and obediance to Church hierarchy/officials
2. Legal obligations towards clergy/mandatory tithing(leads to corruption)
3. Allowing/encouraging religious leaders to have governmental power
4. Ambiguity with regards to the importance of scriptural passages. (this allows a sect to pick a sentence and say "A HAH! This is what the truth is! And just run with it, even if it doesn't make sense from another viewpoint")
5. The concept of "infallibility" in regards to either officials or doctrine
6. Doctine that makes factual claims that are unnecessary/arbitrary(mainly in relation to #5. It makes even small discrepancies a major threat to the faith, and thus provokes a major reaction).
7."Mysteries", "Higher secrets" and so on. Allows the higher ups to pretend special knowledge. Aids corruption.
8. Being a "Revealed" Religion. Similar to 7. A Revlealed religion is one in which ONLY the founder/prophet "knows" what is going on. Beliefs that are untestable by everyone.


Having one, or more of these does not automatically make a religion/cult corrupt and/or violent, it just ups the chances. The more of these properties that exist the more likely/easily the religion/cult or subset of a religion is to be a "problem".


Also, religion has more upsides than the above poster may realize. In addition to morality/comfort, it has some usefull social dimensions. One is that religious services allows people to meet and interact that may not normally. This helps keep society from becoming too stratified. The rich meet and the poor and see they are human and vice versa. Workers from different fields, people from different generations, etc.

Of course, a religion that actively stratifies people loses these benefits. IE: it is pretty worthless.

I don't buy that people need religion for moral values, you said yourself that you don't believe, yet I assume you have moral values. Religion is a crutch that people should be working towards losing.

All of you seem to be talking as if you are superior beings that have overcome the 'absurdity' of religion and pity the poor mortal fools who cannot help but honestly feel the hand of their God - whomever he/she/it/they may be - in their lives. It seems as if you hold the sentiment of 'Silly children; if it makes them feel better, let them persist.'

Some of you also speak of religion as a crutch. Well, I can truly say that I would rather be supported by my crutch through life and find out at the very end that I could have walked on my own, rather than limp through life without it and find out that I truly needed it. Basically, I'd rather believe in God and be wrong than not believe and be wrong.

I was raised Atheist. Since coming to God, I have noticed profound changes in my life. I am not pessimistic like I used to be, I am more accepting of people, I am much happier. That is not to say that God has blessed me with flowers and sunshine, but rather that I am taking the bad days a lot less harshly than I would have before.

Perhaps that is not God working in me. Perhaps I have convinced myself that God has improved my life when really it is just a belief in self that has sprouted from it. Maybe He is not real at all, and it's just my mind improving on it's own and thinking it is God in my life.

Or maybe He really is up there.

The fact of the matter is, none of you were present at Creation. None of you can go back in time and say "This is exactly how it happened. I saw it with my very eyes."

I cannot prove my beliefs just as you all cannot prove yours. It is really a silly thing to debate. I personally quite like my crutch, and I'd rather believe it is real than believe it is not. At least if I'm wrong, it's not as bad as it would be if I was wrong coming from the other side of the tracks.

Woah. Rambling. I probably lost the point of the conversation somewhere up there, but oh well...

Webguide- some people don't need it as an incentive for moral values, such as myself and most likely you and others who don't believe in a religion... But for those who do, religion will be, like I just said, an incentive. They believe in some invisible guy watching over them. They believe in mystical forces around them. And they believe that if you do something wrong, you pay for it. Therefore, religion will act as a moral enforcer. Don't be bad or you'll go to hell...

And Yamato has proved my point. She is must happier since religion.
"Ignorance is bliss" I believe is the expression. Now, I am in no way saying Yamato is ignorant, so don't misunderstand. She sounds like a very bright girl. But, she did, like I have said earlier in this thread, find comfort. She's more accepting of people. She's happier. She's less pessimistic.

So, what does it matter if she's believing in a lie? As long as she's happy, and she doesn't go off on a holy war because she thinks God wants her to or anything like that, there's nothing wrong with religion.
Now, if she said, "George Bush is great because God wants him to be president..." Then, we'd have a problem. But that problem doesn't occur with all religious believers luckily.

As I said in another debate, proof is an imaginary concept outside of mathematics.

There is no proof, only disproof and/or the preponderance of evidence. There is plenty to debate about those with regards to religion.