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> Cern 'black Hole Creator'
Darasen
post Sep 12 2008, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE(yordan @ Sep 11 2008, 08:58 AM) *
No, it's not the way it works.
In current high energy physics, when something has one chance over one million to occur and you try one hundred million times, it will occur one hundred times.
That's the miracle when very small probabilities concern a huge amount of events. What you are talking about is a probability of ten to the -24. If your experiment concerns ten to the +27, you will see one thousand events. If your experiment concerns ten to the +30 (less particles than inside the sugar you put in you cup of coffee) you will see one million events.


Allow me to clarify the last line of my post as it does read a bit unclear.

QUOTE
Two sub atomic particles that may not even exist for 1 / 1000000000000000000000000th of a second is of zero concern.

should read more like:

When two sub atomic particles interact (An Interaction that may never take place) for 1 / 1000000000000000000000000th of a second that interaction is of zero concern.

Thus I was not talking about the probability of any event rather than noting how fast any "miniature black hole" would last in the collider. Yes that is about the length of time any "black hole" would exist before it decayed.

Granted saying the interaction may never take place might sound like a reference to probability. But, the statement is a reference to the fact that the scientist involved do not actually know if they will create a mini black hole given that the scientific models that allow for the creation of such an event are very much theoretical. Certainly they are grounded in good science and mathematically they make sense. However the lack of directly observable evidence means that they remain theories. All that to say that if certain theories are not quite right then there remains an absolutely firm zero % chance of a mini black hole ever being created, regardless of how many times an experiment is ran. Conversely if they are correct there is a 100% chance one would be created.

Allow me to add some more information to the discussion.

So if everything does indeed lend itself to the creation of a mini black hole inside the collider then what? Consider that the mini black hole is only gong to last "a few billion billion billionths of a second" after that time the mini black hole evaporates into other elementary particles. This is called Hawking Radiation. Even if Hawking is wrong (doubtful at best) and the mini black hole does not evaporate it would still be so incredibly small (having no more mass than a pair of subatomic particles) that it would never be able to gain enough mass to ever be a threat to the planet. This statement is confirmed by the the presence of celestial objects like white dwarfs.

Lastly, there is in science, even Quantum Mechanics, a point of probability that is considered impossible.
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Darasen
post Sep 12 2008, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE(xboxrulz @ Sep 11 2008, 10:25 PM) *
I'm not sure how's this such a huge concern at this moment. If indeed the probability of creating a blackhole big enough to suck Earth in was a huge probability, then no one would be even be dumb enough to fund the project and governments of TWO countries would not agree to this.

So, I'm not too sure why it is such a BIG issue.

xboxrulz


Largely due to a general lack of basic scientific knowledge. Then there are others that prey on this lack of knowledge and sensationalism always makes good headlines.
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yordan
post Sep 12 2008, 08:48 AM
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I think the question is simpler than that.
High energy physics need high energy accelerators.
So, it's normal, when upper energy limit is reached with a given machine, scientists guess that they should be able to learn more with a higher energy machine.
And, of course, when public money is involved, it could be smart to explain simply what is the result which can be expected from this device. If a scientist says "I would like to verify the current theoretical model describing carbon 13 by means of impulsing high energy to some tiny pieces of charcoal" nobody would be interested. But if you add "using the time reversal mechanism in the transfer matrix this could explain the behavior of the original thing some picoseconds after the big bang" this sounds very interesting for a lot of people. And if you add "some of the collision fragments will behave like black holes" you win the advertisement jackpot.
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P3dram
post Sep 12 2008, 11:40 AM
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this is a rap music from one of the cern scientist:
https://www.msu.edu/~mcalpin9/lhc_rap/lg_hadron_rap.mp3

in the tunnle :
http://www.vimeo.com/1431471?pg=embed&sec=1431471
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skedad
post Sep 14 2008, 09:47 AM
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So let us say that it is possible... where would you use it, and would it really work as it is supposed to? And the result would be that... What instant disaster? There is a swarming vortex on the West Coast of the States. So everything is being pulled into Los Angeles, so when it all gets absorbed, what is next? I just don't fully understand the capabilities... shouldn't it be installed in or on a rocket and then boom zap it towards Earth when it is in Space!!?? Then what!!?? The rocket just goes off, no more Earth...

Obviously, I have not given it the right amount of thought... But has anybody really? And if so, then bravo, alert me when I have to worry... And I just watch way too many SciFi movies and shows and cartoons to just realize that it is fun to really wonder, but if it were to really happen, then to pray because what good could come from having this technology!!??

Just a thought or few...
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levimage
post Sep 14 2008, 11:18 PM
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I think that something that can suck (by gravity) all the free floating electrons from a conductive object (metal/electronic) would be a more effective weaponary device. Imagine stripping a country of it's ability to use any from electronic technology. I think that would take the EPM to the next level. But how would you turn it off -- easy just move it away. *nah* I'm just guessing. ohmy.gif
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Eggie
post Oct 5 2008, 01:25 PM
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i dont really know what to say about it...are they crazy or is this only a joke?
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yordan
post Oct 6 2008, 08:22 AM
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QUOTE(Eggie @ Oct 5 2008, 03:25 PM) *
i dont really know what to say about it...are they crazy or is this only a joke?

Who are you asking if they are crazy ? The people posting answers to this topic ? The TV comments for non-scientists ? Or the scientists by themselves ?
Remember that there is an important gap between what the scientists are doing (high energy heavy ions collision in order to measure the stable energy levels in some parts of the atoms) and the extrapolations some comments could add in order to make this kind of things more exciting for people like us.
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