hey i suppose u forgot to read my response on that. i bet u caught hold of the wrong set of movies. There are classics in Hindi cinema which have been acknowledged world wide. Certain holllywood movies are based on Hindi movie themes too. One very good example is Pearl Harbour. The love theme of the movie is an exact replica of the 1959 Indian Classic, 'Sangam'. Plus there is a movie of Linsday Lohan, in which she plays a double role with divorced parents. That theme is a ditto copy of a very old Indian movie whose name I dont remember.

The opposition camp for Aryan Invasion theory tries to spread the idea that Aryan Society was a resident of India and Indian soil is the breeding ground for Aryan Race. I want to give a twist to it and say that Vedic culture is a resident of India, and Aryans might have been immigrants or fellow locals who mixed with the Vedic Society and helped in the advancement of Vedic culture.

Before going any further let us consider the fact that Adam and Eve were from Africa and the human race later moved into India, perhaps witnessed by the creation of Himalayas after a land mass from Africa hitting Chinese territory! The age of human race in a particular area is defined by the diversity of genes in an area according to a recent study. Based on this Africa is most diverse, then comes India and then Europe. That is good enough evidence to illustrate the spread of man kind. The morphing of ice age into current climate supports this pattern of spread in human race as described by Captain Ron. This clearly helps us understand that there was a society in India when a cult of humans invaded Indus civilization, if it ever happened.

Towards the end in the main article in this thread there are lots of pointers mentioning how great the Indic culture is. However great a culture is, it does not mean that culture is old. For example consider the Industrial Revolution that happened in Europe. Like forest fire it has placed Asia and Africa behind in technology, not withstanding who set the foot first on a continent. So the sophistication of a culture is not a true measure for its age, especially when we are talking on the lines of "YUGS".

I will soon post some read from an internet site here. According to that site there is a language that is similar to Tamil, the virgin Dravidian language, near Iran. Considering the Indus Civilization was close to Iran we can assume that Dravidians were indeed the ones who formed this civilization. In Tamil Nadu today a section of the crowd worships Ravana and burns effigies of Rama. They claim Ramayana was indeed a fight between Dravidians and Aryans. Ravana, the follower of Shiva had Pushpaka Vimana for commute. These facts (Tamil culture was in existence near Indus valley and that Dravidians and Aryans had common Gods) inclines us to think that Dravidian culture might have been sophisticated which resided by the Indus river. ( Is it genuine the picture we see from NASA showing a sunken bridge connecting India and Srilanka ? )

Coming to the color of the skin, Rama and Krishna from Treta and Dwapara Yugs are said to be dark in color. So Aryans might have been totally dark or had few with fair skin who acknowledged Rama and Krishna as not great personalities but Gods. However they were not a cult of white colored folks. It is so exciting to point the fact that today in India we don't differentiate between colors, even though it happens in the modern west, well within the cover of equality for all. In fact according to our school books this was the case during Aryan-Dravidian mix, but who knows whether early Aryans were fair or dark in complexion?

Aryans might have invaded Vedic Society, hated and fought with the Dravidians in the early years. But soon they mingled with Dravidians and got married with them. It is again not important that who is the mighty here. Afghanis invaded India time and again with success in relatively recent past. If a society is soft and inclined more towards peace and literature, it becomes a sitting duck for someone who only knows how to move a sword.

The point to note here is that there is no true Aryan or Dravidian in India to date. Everyone is a mix of the two or worst case it is the Dravidians who gave birth to an Aryan race. The greatness actually lies in a land which has nurtured a great culture. That is why the greater India has been referred to as "Karma Bhumi", the land of good deeds. The blood less freedom struggle against the kingdom where son never settles down started in this "Karma Bhumi", no where else.

- Anil

Opethian

Don't compare Hollywood with Bollywood products. Worlds best come and join hands to make a hollywood product. Look at the actors most of them are from Australia / New Zealand we need to import the talent here as well. Bollywood projects are based more on relationship so from a materialistic frameset they look boring. Plus India did not have the concept of releasing Music Albums, it was a package deal in Movies to see a script and an album. Now things are changing though.

Show a hollywood movie to an Indian Villager and he would laugh at you and say first show me a Allien from a different planet before you make these fantasy movies. It is just a frame of mind !

Coming to the stereo type movies... Spielberg makes a Jaws, you get 10s of them later on. He makes ET, there u go you get a bunch of alien movies following it. I have been watching Hollywood movies for quite some time now and the truth of the matter is it is boring day by day. There is nothing new.

It was a shame that you brought in such a silly sub topic when people were discussing about something in depth and brain storming.

- Anil

IMO every religion is a school of thought which was put together by great personalities for a better living. Down the line religions have been mis handled by followers to give it a bad image, just like the river Ganges from her birth to end taking all the garbage downstream. There is a belief that Jesus Christ after resurrection lived in Pehal Gaun in the northern slopes of India (Even Cleopatra chose India as safe heaven for her son). When he heard the messengers of Christianity and their morphed preaching at that place it heart him more than the pain he underwent earlier. (Did you guys check the recent article on a deciphering which mentions that Jesus planned his own crucifiction with the help of his follower "Judas" ?)

So I don't know where this idea comes from that to be a Hindu you should be born in a Hindu family. Anyone can be a Hindu or anyone being what he is (Christian or Muslim) can learn about Hinduism and follow the preaching in full or part or none. After all it is a school of thought about how to lead our lives. And I think so is every religion not withstanding what the mercenaries of the religion preach us to believe.

I have the same hatred towards castism in Hinduism. That some one not born as a Brahmin can't be a Brahmin. Why not ? If a person born as a Brahmin can eat meat and be something else why can't it be the other way round. Why should preachers of the religion play god and say who is what ?

I hail from a southern city called Udupi, the name many of you know for its delicacies. It also happens to be the birth place of Dwaitha school of thought (Soul and God are different at any point of time). The Krishna Matt there was into a controversy recently with backward cast folks demanding Pooja honors. The episode might have lost it temper, but I ask, if someone can pronounce the Shlokas the way it is expected to be, then why not ? Isn't this the fundamental aspect of Democratic Society ? Why should we be partial ?

I agree with Mahatma on many things and strongly so when it comes to division of society based on cast. And the sad part is no one is observing the job tied to his cast these days in India still some of them are proud of the cast they represent.

- Anil

Hi Anil,

Well, on your Dravidian-Aryan twist, you have basically preached the Aryan Invasion Theory. You say that even today some Dravidians worship Ravana and burn structures of Rama. Don't you see the British diplomacy here? They have always bred on the Divide-and-Conquer tactics. It was just another nail in the coffin.
Your suggestion of Aryan's comming from north, but howsoever, Vedic Culture being Indian has no sense considering the fact that Indus Valley Civilization has been so far found to be non-Vedic. So if indeed the Dravidians were original Indus valley citizens and drawn south by the Aryans from north, they were definitely not Vedic and they were converted into the Vedic culture.
But that is definitely not the case since whatever we have as the remains of ancient Dravidians, they were followers of the same Gods as the Aryans. Some of the most important figures of Hinduism have been from the south. For example Shankracharya. If not for him, we would have been majorly Buddhists. Chanakya, supposedly a South Indian(dravidian), but became an important figure of the Maurya Dynasty which was evidently Aryan or North Indian. I don't see any discrimination between south and north except that of Language.

Comming back to the Aryan Invasion Theory, Anil, how would you justify the discovery of underwater submerged Dwarka, the city of Lord Krishna, which carbon-dates to 9500 years old? If only once this site excavated properly and all facts are rightly proved to the World (some proof that it is indeed Dwarka, although it has been found at the place were it was speculated), do you realise, the whole Indian History will take a flip? Western world will have to re-write the Indian history.



Let's keep this aside. On todays date, Mesopotamia and Summeria fight the battle for being the oldest civilization of the world. With a little more time, India will become the un-paralled leader in the race. That is what we are looking forward to.
If indeed the above quote is significant, then why isn't south india the most genetically diverse region? They have a history that dates 3000 BC (if you propose they were Indus valley inhabbitants). Well frankly speaking I don't understand this concept. My neighbour is a Parsi, he has a history from Persia, how does he contribute to the History of this region? He brings genetic diversity with him, but he his not a historical resident of this place.



Uh... see that's exactly what I am trying to prophecize. There is nothing as Dravidians or Aryans till date. People just got more sun-tanned as they dwelled south. Don't you see a gradual downfall in color from North to south? I think majority of Kannads have slightly lighter skins than Tamil/Malyalis. Same for Andhra Pradeshis.
We are indeed the same religion and race, with lingual differences and gradual sun tan.

OK I would like to make a note, that the discussion has lost its main concept. The concept that if for some time, you consider that Mahabharata was Indeed true history, and Brahmastra eradicated life on earth, you will see a lot of questions do get answered (from Indus Valley to Atlantis). All I am trying to say is, very few people were left by the end of Dvapara Yuga, and they re-initiated the life on Earth. People spread to different lands and formed yet new cultures. The time span is of thousands of years! Within few decades, we have a new breed of Language called Mumbaiyya, considering thousands of years... well you can guess.

At the end, I would like to point you back to the original point, all this while I have been trying to say that there are lots of evidences against the Aryan Invasion Theory, and I myself say that the so-called Proto-Indo-Europeans were none other but the ancient Vedic Indians.

Now the thing about Castism.
Castism was very logical, although the practices got tainted later. See, when a society is divided into work groups, the efficiency of the society increases. For that reason, look at the way a company functions. The way it divides work groups. Logically you can argue that why can't a programmer be a manager, maybe he has better ideas to run the company.
Also, basically in the old days, you grew up learning whatever was your family business. You also grew up becomming perfect in your business. As long as this wasn't missused, it was a great concept. People were always happy with it (atleast in the ancient times).

Similarly you can argue for Sati system. At one point of time, wives were so dedicated to their husbands that they committed Sati on their own will, without any external pressure. Slowly it became a followed practice, (just like a captain goes down with a sinking ship). But later it became a forced practice which was wrong.

This post has been edited by CaptainRon: May 1 2006, 01:49 PM

Here you go.. someone of Soulseek pointed a site out to me about a book on the "real" Atlantis (yeah I know - it's most likely to be "another" of those) which claims that India and Indonesia were parts of the real Atlantis prior to the continental drift. That might explain all that advanced technology described in the Vedas. Hell.. the Atlanteans supposedly even mastered Anti-Gravity, which has been outlined in the ancient Sanskrit scriptures.. That might be a possible explanation of the whole picture.

Here's the site: http://www.atlan.org/

This actually makes sense. I never looked at it that way. With all the people shouting their throats off on Casteism being bad, it's just possible that the Indian Society was able to reach it's height of civilization thanks to the effective division of work in the community.

But it would be interesting to find out on what basis did the initial caste system arise. How were people alloted the caste initially? Was it on lots or voluntarily joining a particular caste? When exactly did the Caste system come into being?

thanx abhiram. actually we will really need to learn sanskrit for that and then take a dive into reading the Vedas (although translations are available, different scholars translate it differently), Upnishads, Puranas and all other religious texts. Did you get the link i posted for the Vaimanika Shastra translation?

You know what the problem with Indian Historical study is? We have been dwelling on the same land for thousands of years. Evidences have been lost through time. Take example of ayodhya, kurukshetra or any other ancient city. People have lived over these places for ages since Ramayan or Mahabharat. So usually we don't uncover the Indus Valley type cities. Although its well known that our ancient cities were at par or even better than the Indus Valley ones. Lanka was supposed to be the best of its time. But as I said... under whose house will u dig to uncover artifacts?

Dwarka is an exception. It sunk and remained sunk since Mahabharata. I hope we uncover something real exciting from there! I hope you are aware that a construction of an underwater museum is underway at Dwarka. We will walk through those transparent tubes to have a look at the old city. I simply don't understand why doesnt government allocate enough funds to dig deeper in the underwater city. Few bones and wood/metal tool peices have confirmed that it was a human dwelling. The Sonar scan had shown the square city boundaries. I even had a talk with an archeologist (the project leader) of National Indian Oceanography through the official website, but he says as of now nothing really revolutionary was found, and there is lack of funds for the project. Apart from that even if India gets as much tools and money as put into Titanic investigation, we could probably dig the whole city upside down, and tell its actual background and relation to the ancient dwarka.

Uh.. probably amongst this discussion I can share an experience :-). My uncle owns a few acres of land in a village near Itarsi, MP. A few years back they were digging a 20 ft deep well near the farms. While digging, at around 17 ft, workers got choked by carbon monooxide and many bronze/brass/iron artifacts were uncovered. I was there at that point. One was a bronze/brass 'matka'/pot, another one was an iron box, though it was empty and totally deformed. I seriously started wondering how old these items would be. Thought maybe I could take them with me and get them carbon-dated... but before I got out of my fantasy, I saw that the pot was now being used to lift mud and stones out of the 20 ft deep well and the box was taken by a local villager who planned to sell it as scrap )

Maybe sometime later (when i have money ) I can think of hiring a few labourers and dig nearby areas to uncover something important.

The village I am talking about is very close to Pachhmari, where the Pandavas have been speculated to spend their "vanwaas" period. The village has a very very old local temple of Lord Shiv. I hope there is an old city underground

Well, I don't think we'll have the time to learn Sanskrit until we're quite old and ready to retire . We should have started when we were younger, but now might be a bit difficult.

Yup, I got the link. Thanks. I did read a few pages online but then came to the part about Wilhelm Reich and then started Googling about him. It's a rather interesting book, and I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy.

Hehe, too bad about the incident in your village. But who knows how many such items are still lying buried under the surface?