My 10 Year Old Son's Fear Of Death "What dreams may come"

	My 10 Year Old Son's Fear Of Death - "What dreams may come"
	Discussion by mitchellmckain with 14 Replies. Last Update: September 1, 2008, 7:41 pm

mitchellmckain

My 10 year old son came to me last night because he was afraid of death, he thought maybe that after he died he would not exist. I told him that I didn't think non-existence was anything to be afraid of and that many, if not most, actually hope for this. To illustrate, I recited Hamlet's soliloquy.

QUOTE (Hamlet)

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

Then we discussed what he thought it would be like to lose an arm or even both. I asked him what part was him and he thought he was his brain. So I launched into a description of what the brain really was, interacting chemicals and elementary particles all following deterministic laws, like a long chain of dominoes connecting cause and effect, and I asked him where he thought he was in all of that. Why I asked do you think there is a you in first place? Could this simply be a figment of your imagination?

Then I said that that there was after all a phenomena in science that did not act like a big chain of dominoes. I took out James Gleick's book "Chaos" and turned to page 114 to show him a picture of the strange attractor and to page 71 to see the bifurcation diagram. What makes things go one way and not the other, I asked. These are generated by mathematical equations which are deterministic. I explained how physics was governed by mathematical laws so that if you knew the intial conditions you could predict everything thereafter. Then I explained about significant figures and that what you thought was a cup half full of water could with increasingly better measuring devices determining more significant digits in a number close to a half, be a fraction that you could never know exactly. Then I explained how Ilya Prigogine proved that systems like the strange attractor and bifurcation required knowing the initial conditions to an infinite degree (all the significant digits) of precision in order to predict. So what, its still deterministic isn't it?

Well there is just one problem, Quantum physics. In this we find there are events very similar to those in chaos science which are unpredictable refered to as measurements or wave collapse. Scientists objecting to something that contradicted determinism supposed that there were simply hidden variables (like all those significant figures we could not measure) which we did not know but which determined these events anyway. Then a scientist John Stewart Bell found a way that he could prove this. He found that if there were hidden variables then there were experiments that could be performed that should show correlations satisfying a mathematical condition. Only when the experiments were performed the condition (an inequality) was not satisfied, proving once and for all that there are no hidden variables.

So the in real physical systems unlike the mathematical equations, the choice of path in nonlinear systems could not ultimately be said to be determined by initial conditions because the initial conditions do not exist to an infinite degree of precision. The precision of intial conditions ends at the quantum level. So either these events are not determined by anything at all or they are determined by things outside of physics, which are not restricted to the premise of local reality or local causality which physics now takes for granted. So maybe this feeling that we have that there is a self that determines our actions which is not simply part of a chain of dominoes -- maybe this feeling has a basis in reality, and maybe this self isn't part of this whole system of chemistry and interacting particles.

Perhaps there is a self outside this causal chain of physics that makes choices and it is these choices are what ultimately determine the direction of our actions. So my son asked me wondering what that thing outside of physics could be. So I told him that many people call this the spirit, and if this was indeed what people call the spirit there are two important implications. The first is that all living things without exception (and perhaps even many things not usually thought of as alive) have such spirits because the phenomena we were describing was common to all of them. The second implication is that this spirit consists of the choices we make and that the choice we make are what we really are.

I told him that this spirit being outside the laws of physics is most likely not subject to decay, but of course that doesn't mean that it is alive. Continuing existence without life might be hell, and so there might indeed be far worse things to fear that mere non-existence. The choices we make in life is certain to play a role and so the responsibilty we have in living may not be so easily escaped in death.

We ended by watching the movie "What dreams may come." Which reflects well my suspicions that life after death is likely to be quite confusing rather than suddenly proving whether we are right or wrong about what happens at death. I think it quite likely that an atheist will simply believe that he lost in delerium or dreaming on his deathbed, and never come to the conclusion that he was wrong at all. Of course, on the other hand, if the atheist is right, then neither atheist nor the religious person will realize his being right or wrong either.

I would also like to point out in that movie, "What dreams may come", where I think the real difference between heaven and hell lies, which is more about where your path will eventually lead rather than where you immediately find yourself. The real difference between heaven and hell was at that point of the movie where "Christy" (Robin Williams) is about to go chasing after what he believes to be his wife, but his friend stops him. I think heaven is having such a guide to give such desperately needed advice (which you are only likely to have if you are inclined to heed such advice). I think hell is following the illusion of people but in reality being completely alone. And being alone you will most certainly follow inclinations that will inevitably lead in the end to dark places, some of which are shown quite graphically in the film.

Thu Feb 16, 2006 Reply New Discussion

miCRoSCoPiC^eaRthLinG

Dude - your articles have always been admirable - and this one even more so. I've always thought about how to face such questions from my future kid(s)

and I'm pleasantly surprised that on quite a few occasions my viewpoints so tally with yours. It's like hearing from someone else how I'd like to describe the world to my children. Nice one man... Keep 'em flowing in.

Best regards,
m^e

Fri Feb 17, 2006 Reply New Discussion

ebbinger_413

amazing...i am speechless...

i am 17 and lost...i know i dont have a religion...but i dont know what to call myself...i dont believe in god...but i belive that there might possibly be something out there that is watching/guiding the lives that we are living. i dont beleive in "life" after death...but i believe that our soul/matter will continue to play a part in humanity (your body decomposes and becomes soil for a plant...the plant feeds on you...you gave life to the plant...so on and so on). it is an amazing topic (life after death) and everything related to it...i wish i could study more of it..but i simply do not have the time

i love the way you put your thoughts into words and i would be unalbe to do that myself

...

(btw i love that movie!)

Fri Feb 17, 2006 Reply New Discussion

Cezphus

Well, I don't want to die.
And I bet a lot of people don't want to die.
But we are all going to die some time

So basically what I do is fit as much as I can into each day.
Live each day to it's fullest (sp. I think)

Sat Feb 25, 2006 Reply New Discussion

mitchellmckain

QUOTE (Cezphus)

Well good, I am glad to here this. Wanting to die or not accepting the fact that you have to die would both be good reasons for us to suggest counseling. The question here is what are your expectations or hopes for after death? Do you expect non-existence? Do you expect or prefer some type of existence after death? Do you fear non-existence after death or do you fear something worse? How would you handle such a question from your children? Have you seen the movie "What dreams may come", and what do you think of it? What do you think of Shakespear's Hamlet? Do have questions about the science discussed? Do you think you are your brain or do believe in something like a spirit?

Do you think about death and what comes after or do you avoid the question as much as possible? Scott Peck says he has a "love afair" with death and suggests that a certain amount of thinking about death promotes psychological health. He has dealt with cases of people who avoid and supress the questions about death until the neuroses created by this destroys their lives. Of course I don't doubt that excessive obsession (like every waking moment) with death is not healthy either, after all too much of anything good (with a few exceptions) is likely to be bad.

Sat Feb 25, 2006 Reply New Discussion

zacaroo

i am 14 and i have previously had that fear it is very scary and i dont want to think about it again

Sun Feb 26, 2006 Reply New Discussion

techocian

I believe that all fears orginate from fear itself. There are no fear of heights. Your body will make you fear that you'll fall and that fear makes you fall if you don't get a hold of yourself. So your real fear would be a fear of the body's reaction to looking down and seeing your feet 40 storeys above normal ground. This may sound really weird but yeah, I've kind of learned to manage my fears by exposing myself to the fear (In safe conditions that is...)

Sun Feb 26, 2006 Reply New Discussion

Cezphus

QUOTE (techocian)

Hehe,
I saw this program on TV ages ago.
There is this boy (real life story). He was afraid of snakes, like really afriad.
So afraid that he never went into a pet store.
But one day on of his mates bought a snake from a pet store,
And put it in his school bag. He didn't find out about until he went to do his homework that evening.
He opened his bad and found the snake at the bottom of his bag.

He decided to chuck it out the window, so he got a stick and tried to move it.
After a while of the snake not moving he just left it there, Did his homework and went to sleep.
Next day the snake was in his bed. He was scared for a couple of mintues but got use to the fact that he overcome his fear of snakes.

(In safe conditions that is...)
Lol Good point!

But how do you over come your fear of death?

Mon Feb 27, 2006 Reply New Discussion

mitchellmckain

QUOTE (Cezphus)

But how do you over come your fear of death?

Link: view Post: 71301

I think that in healthy development we come to love our "self", then the idea that this "self" might just disappear becomes frightening. I remember this experience from childhood. It was almost like a falling sensation, almost as if the ground upon which we stand had disappeared. I also think as we grow we slowly learn to look into the future and to prepare ourselves. But when we understand death this becomes a stumbling block. How can we prepare for what cannot see. In this second idea we see a great similarity between the fear of death and the fear of the dark.

I think we overcome the fear of the dark when our sense of reality becomes stronger. We have faith that the familiar things are still there around us and we even learn to see them with our minds "eye". Many people deal with the fear of death in the same way, adopting a faith in and seeing a vision of existence beyond death for which they can prepare. But others accept the idea of no existence after death and realize therefore that no preparation is needed. But then how do we deal with this idea of the disappearance of self? Well, I really think this happens for many people when the love of self is superceded by a love for something else. Often the infatuation and attachment to the "self" diminishes with time, and the "self" just doesn't seem so all important any more. Perhaps, however, the most important thing which reduces our fear of death is simply acceptance.

When we accept that death really is inevitable and there really is nothing we can do to change that fact, then we can profitably turn our attention to things where what we do can make a differnence. When we truly accept that death is unavoidable then we realize that worrying about the possiblity of non-existence is pointless; what will come, will come. Sometimes we even come to realize that the possiblity of nonexistence is not so bad, but actually comforting. In this case, the realization that non-exsitence may not be counted on (for we really do not know what will happen after death) may become an abstract sort of fear. In this case the blank and unknowable wall of death makes a respectful fear of what may come after death a bit difficult, for at that point it has become hard to fear something which we cannot see.

Mon Feb 27, 2006 Reply New Discussion

warbird

Everybody have to die. It just is, there isn't any way (and there probably won't be any) to become immortal. I just wanted to say this to you all: When your time has come to go, make sure you don't lived like most humans do; they life like they'll never die, and they die like they've never lifed. If you did so I'm pretty sure you've lifed the best life you can life.

-=jeroen=-

Sat Mar 11, 2006 Reply New Discussion

evought

QUOTE (mitchellmckain)

Personally, it does not matter to me much in that it does not affect how I live my life. I am a Christian, but I do not follow Christ for the promise of new life or immortality. I would be just as happy if death were simply an end to labors. I think I would deserve that after the things I have done and been through. Rather, I serve Christ/God because that is built into my nature. Throughout my whole life I have had surface doubts, sometimes serious ones, but there has always been a core of faith to carry me through. I have no doubt that whatever reward I get for my toils will be just and leave it at that. Christ is my Good Lord, my liege. Who else would I follow?

One of the things which immediately comes to mind when discussing this sort of thing is Stonewall Jackson who was standing on the battle field with artillary shells exploding around him. He stood stock still and directed his troops as if he were in his living room in front of a comfortable fire. An officer asked him how he could do this and he responded: "God knows the time of my death and I cannot affect it one way or the other." That simple and direct faith is something I have always tried to remember.

In the same way, what happens after death is neither something I am likely to understand nor my concern. One way or another I will be provided for when the time comes and, in the meantime, I have other things to concentrate on.

Another thing which comes to mind, however, is Terry Pratchett's Disk World series where someone dies and is visited by Death. "What? No Judgement, no Justice?" "No," says Death, "there is only me." In that world, people go wherever they expect, something like in "What Dreams May Come." That means that good people who do not believe in themselves may punish themselves and bad people who think they are good may be rewarded.

I would like to see the Maker at some point to ask some questions. Sometimes I would like to punch Him in the nose. I would like to think that Death will make things make sense in some way. As you (I believe) said in a different thread, the story of God is as much the story of humankind and our developing relationship with God. My relationship has changed much over time, but there has always been a strong relationship.

Wed May 3, 2006 Reply New Discussion

CaptainRon

seems most of you already get the point, but still quoting a translation of a "shloka/stanza" from Gita.

QUOTE

The truth about us

The plain fact is this: There are no dead. For Krishna continues: �There was never a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor any of these kings. Nor is there any future in which we shall cease to be.�4 We are as eternal as God Himself because we derive our very being from God. Just as there was never a time when God did not exist, nor can there be a time when He will not exist�especially since He is utterly outside of time�so there can never come a time when we shall not exist, for we, too, exist outside of time however enmeshed we are in the experience of time through the temporal instruments of the body and mind.

You see the references to time? Lord Krishna has throughout emphasized on Time, being the seed of the universe.
And ofcourse, those acquainted to Einstein's Theory of Relativity, know that this universe is nothing but a Space/Time matrix.

But still what I know for sure is no Religion/Ancient scripture defines clearly what is beyond this universe, and what is beyond God. OK agreed, as Einstein says we just exist in Space/Time, but then what after that???? We have to be existing somewhere... something beyond space time...
Probably we will find it's answer after death only.

Sat May 6, 2006 Reply New Discussion

WEEE!!

Interesting article.. Everyone has a fear of something, and fear of death is natural (obviously) because they have a good time in their life, which leads to selfishness of his or own life, another reason is that they will feel sad for the people that mourn for them (or something)

People that have no religion would conclude that you sleep eternally, which is probably most of us want, peace, you won't know anything that happens around you, where you wouldn't notice good or bad (This is getting hard to explain =\)

Buddhists believe that they will reincarnate, which your soul would leave your body (but not your brain, thats why Buddhists believe that we are born without knowledge about their past life) and get reborn into one of the five categories of things you can be reborn into (I can't remember lol)

Christians believe that we die and sleep for some time and wait for the Second Coming. There were significant proof of Christ and some prophecies were fufilled.

Death is a complicated subject that people cannot explain very well... BLeh, just wait for the time to come and you'll be living happily in the end (according to religion)

Wed May 10, 2006 Reply New Discussion

mitchellmckain

QUOTE (evought)

Thanks for that. I get really tired of atheists who like to characterize religion and Christianity in particular as a fantasy invented to handle the fear of death. This really does not jibe with the motivations of a great deal of the religious people I have known.

QUOTE (evought)

Another thing which comes to mind, however, is Terry Pratchett's Disk World series where someone dies and is visited by Death. "What? No Judgement, no Justice?" "No," says Death, "there is only me." In that world, people go wherever they expect, something like in "What Dreams May Come." That means that good people who do not believe in themselves may punish themselves and bad people who think they are good may be rewarded.
Link: view Post: 77057

Unless of course the difference between good and evil is not just some meaningless set of rules but has to do with a fundamental effect on our own being. If good is basically self constructive and evil is self destructive, then "whether you believe in yourself" may not not avail the evil person at all. It was my suggestion that the real difference between heaven and hell lies in the help you get from others, and in this it should be clear why the "good person" has a clear advantage.

QUOTE (evought)

I would like to see the Maker at some point to ask some questions. Sometimes I would like to punch Him in the nose. I would like to think that Death will make things make sense in some way. As you (I believe) said in a different thread, the story of God is as much the story of humankind and our developing relationship with God. My relationship has changed much over time, but there has always been a strong relationship.
Link: view Post: 77057

Unfortunately I greatly doubt that such a revelation at the point of death is forthcomming. I fear that the reality is that you will be surround by friends and family who share your point of view and do little more than confirm what you already believe. It is in life that we have the rare opportunity of discovering that we were wrong and to change our minds.

Unless of course,.....

.....we happen to have a personal relationship with God.

Mon Mar 12, 2007 Reply New Discussion

Jammerjd123

There are so many things we can teach our kids, however, we obviously have an inability to simply transfer knowledge from one brain to another. Due to this, we must put our words in a context in which they can understand. How you spoke to your son was very admirable and intelligent. The topic itself is a scary one to have to speak to a 10 year old, let alone your son.

Mon Sep 1, 2008 Reply New Discussion