intrepid
Dec 15 2004, 09:56 PM
This thread isn't to be about the pros and cons of Linux versus Windows, but a guide to the different broad categories of Linux around. Further I'm not trying to list every known distro - that's already been attempted at http://distrowatch.com/There are, currently, 2 main groups of Linux distributions (or distros), separated by their software installation and handling. The first are .rpm based, the second .deb based. rpm stands for Red Hat Package Management, .deb is short for Debian. As the names imply, rpm based distros are, somewhere along the line, either forked from Red Hat or based on large sections of Red Hat code. Included are Red Hat itself, Fedora Core (the Community release of Red Hat), Mandrake, Suse, and various others. Most "user-friendly" distros fall in this group. Debian, which has one of the most regimented and fundamentally "free" philosophies of any distribution, has equally been used as the base for many other distros. The most commonly known is Knoppix, the famous live CD (which can run on a machine with no hard drive). There are many others, including Mepis, Ubuntu, and various other live CDs based around Knoppix. Although Debian is not easy to install, there are various methods (including the live CD Knoppix) around to make it simpler, and the enormous quantities of software waiting on internet repositories is mind boggling. Then there distros which fit into neither group. Mepis actually accepts both .rpm and .deb files for installing new software, so is an in between case. Slackware, the oldest maintained Linux-based OS, has its own package management system, essentially a compressed folder with pre-compiled software in it. Many other systems have sprung up from Slack, due to it's age and dedicated following - Collage Linux is perhaps the most prominent. Gentoo employs the philosophy of "the source code is available, let's use it" and compiles every program from scratch (including the kernel, if you let it, during installation). Thus it doesn't use a "package management" system as such, but a carefully maintained repository of source code, for virtually any program you can imagine. Similarly Linux from Scratch is a set of tools allowing a user to build a home-grown OS, using only source code. If I've missed any groups, post below. If you think this is a stupid way of classifying Linux distros, tell why.
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qwijibow
Dec 15 2004, 11:49 PM
I Disagree with the gentoo definition. i consider Portage to be one of the most powerfull package management systems of any Linux Distro. Not only does portage solve dependency's, it allows compiler optimisation, and allows you to choose what programs are linked againsed what libraries. The Gentoo Package management is so powerfull, a simple "emerge --sync && emerge --update world" will update your system to the latest available. all other Linux distro's require you to download new versions, re-format and re-install for major upgrades like fedora core2 to fedora core3.
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 16 2004, 07:18 AM
the portage thing in Gentoo sounds a lot like apt-get in debian, what are the differences and advantages/disadvantages to the two methods? I am currently planning to put linux on my desktop and try it out, since I would really like to drop windows altogether. I understand that crossover office allows me to run photoshop under linux, and with that one of my main objections is gone.
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qwijibow
Dec 16 2004, 01:35 PM
Portage and apt-get are completely different ! apt-get downlods a pre compiled program and its dependency's and installs them. their are a limited number of programs which can be compiled by apt-get. but its an okay system. Portage rocks... there is a limited number of programs it can install... but ive never ever ever found a porgram that cannot be installed by portage. when you first setup Gentoo, before you start emergeing anything (emerge is the interface to portage) you have to setup 2 things.. USE flags, and a compile options in the compile options, you set some compiler optimisations. for example i have CFLAGS="-Os -march=athlon -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer" this means anything i install on my computer will be optimised for the AMD athlon to such a degree, the porgrams wont work on other CPU's like penntiums. -Os is an optimisation class.. it will use all speed optimisations that do not significantly increace the size of the binary, and also some size optimisations that will not decreace the speed of the binary. there is an instruction manual, its all quite simple to choose optimisation flags. and now.. the USE flags... possably the most important part of gentoo. first, a little background... when you compile a program from source code, their are dependency's and optional dependency's. behavior on option dependency's is as follows.. if the option delendency is installed.... use that dependency... whih means the program is compiled, and linked againsed as many other programs as it is programmed for. this make more functional programs... but makes them larger, and slower. with use flags, you control what libraries a program is linked againsed. so none of your porograms are linked and compiled againsed libraries that would give them a functionality you do not need. here's an example.... you have a digital camera, but you do not have a scanner.. you want to install a graphics program that can load images from camera's and scanners.. if you install from a pre-compiled binary, the person who compiled it will have compiled the program to be capable of scanners and camera's.. meaning that as a dependency's you will also have to install scanner support, even though you dont have one. this doesnt sound like much of a porblem... and it isnt in multimedia programs.... but in other high performance areas, it makes porgrams less bloated, load and run faster. ALSO, by using Gentoo, you can install the Gentoo kernel... its a linux kernel tweaked for desktop performance. gentoo, if properly configured and compiled is lignhting fast... because it has specific to your machine optimisations, and no fat, its the fastest distro available (apart from linux from scratch) the dissadvantage of compiling from source, is time. for example, installing a binary kernel takes seconds after its downloaded. after a source code kernel is downloaded, it will have a further 15 minute to compile it on a 1.3Ghz athlon machine. Gentoo... the second hardist distro to install...the second fastest, when (compiled properly)
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sottm
Dec 16 2004, 04:29 PM
1. I am not agree that Gentoo haven't program manager like rpm or deb managers. First portage's program, it's src + form. src- it's program src , like rpm too program src, but builted Portage manage src's of program. Than Portage is program manager. And I think that portage better rpm or deb. 2. Why only 2 groups? You missed many groups! And gentoo (one of the best distors) is non- group?! It's not fare. Most progressive group is "Source based distributions", and i thing you must remember it. 3. I don't think that linux can classificated by softaware install metods. I think will be better to classificate it by orientation
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 16 2004, 08:23 PM
Interesting. I may then try gentoo at some point. I think I will start with debian since I have a reasonably fast system already. If I need debian to be faster I will just download the newer kernel, compile it myself a la gentoo, and then use that kernel. that way I get the ease of apt-get and the speed of custom compiles.
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qwijibow
Dec 17 2004, 04:10 PM
QUOTE (MajesticTreeFrog @ Dec 16 2004, 09:23 PM) Interesting. I may then try gentoo at some point. I think I will start with debian since I have a reasonably fast system already. If I need debian to be faster I will just download the newer kernel, compile it myself a la gentoo, and then use that kernel. that way I get the ease of apt-get and the speed of custom compiles. Gentoo actually different to the vanilla linux gernel. its patched quite agressivly for speed. anyways, for speed, i also recomed running a "pre-link" on your system. normally, when you run a program, then program and all the shares objects it depends on are loaded, then have to be linked together in memory. prelinking keeps a database of how to link what programs to what shared objects, reducing link time to almost zero. some larger programs like KDE use half of there startup time linking. also, in KDE, a program called KdeInit is used to link programs and libraries, after pre-linking your system, set prelinked=yes in the config file, and kde nolonger needs to run kdeInit.
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 18 2004, 03:24 AM
I am aware that Gentoo is patched agressively for speed, part of that patching is that each packaged is compiled for your specific system. You can do this with flavors other than gentoo, as far as I know, it just takes a bit more work. Still, thanks for the info, in the next week when I begin work transitioning to linux, It will hopefully come in handy.
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qwijibow
Dec 19 2004, 03:25 AM
QUOTE You can do this with flavors other than gentoo, as far as I know, it just takes a bit more work. to a much smaller degree, yes. for example, you could recompile a porgram on a binary distro, but you connot compile the base libraries that the aplications relie on without recompiling all programs which depend on them. its a bit of an all or nothing... well.. all a a little bit. kind of situation.
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Trekkie101
Dec 21 2004, 02:51 PM
Im interested in two different distro stated above, SuSE and RedHat, i understand SuSE is very easy to get into and use for general desktop use but ive heard that RedHat is more for servers. I already have seen the SuSE look and have not seen the RedHat, i dont want to move yet and dont want live cd's i really want to go the full way with Dual boot or on a seperate partition. Is Fedora what i should get, SuSE or Redhat or should i look more at debian. Theres a lot to choose from. Im really not sure and do they all work with that daul boot thing that comes with SuZE i forget the name but its blue. Any helpful hints?
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 27 2004, 03:44 AM
What I would love to be a part of is an effort to make linux user friendly and not have these issues. Then I could just use linux without ever worrying about the BS. Not only that, but sprucing up linux would make it more attractive to both customers(for use) and corporations(more customers but also in order to make it user friendly it would need a more standardized GUI and human interface guidelines, which would make writing software easier as well). Sadly, I don't know of anywhere that I could work that would pay me to help with this(the best solution) nor of any online attempt to make it happen that is real(which would still be pretty cool). Oh yeah, 200th post!!
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qwijibow
Dec 27 2004, 02:21 AM
QUOTE half the reason why I prefer Gentoo but I was talking about their usability for newbs. dont get me wrong.. i love gentoo, been using it for years.. but ive recently migrated to the AMD64 platform... No newb could have done what i had to do to create a fully 64bit OS with my hardware. the 64bit gentoo boot cd refused to boot because of a buggy IDE-CD driver losing the interupt. however a simple fix for this is to use scsi emulation on the ide device, but that cnanges the hardware address, and the boot cd thinks its own cdrom has vanished of the face of the earch. you can only compile and run 64bit binary's on a 64bit OS, so i couldnt install entoo from my 32bit Knoppix. i had to build a 32bit stage3 partiton, rip the kernel and initrd and he drivers from the 64bit install cd, boot the 64bit Kenrnel into a 32bit root partiton with 32bit emulation, then chroot into my desired 64bit stage1, then install from there. the bad thing about linux.. if it goes wrong, and you dont know what you are doing, you are screwed... the good thing, if it goes wrong, and your a bit of a computer nerd haXor Zero cool, Cerial Killer (as in fruit loops, but he does know stuff) Acid Burn, Crash Override... then you can rpobably fix it. and when tempting fate with the latest hardware, and a DIY distro like Gentoo, you are just asking for trouble.
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 25 2004, 06:15 AM
well yeah, but when I first tried linux, I tried redhat and the dependency BS just got annoying and I decided that(since I knew how to keep my windows box secure/virus free) it wasn't worth it at the time. Redhat and mandrake have both improved significantly over the last few years, so things may be much better.
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coder2000
Dec 25 2004, 03:25 AM
half the reason why I prefer Gentoo but I was talking about their usability for newbs.
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MajesticTreeFrog
Dec 24 2004, 11:11 PM
except both Fedora and Mandrake use RPM based stuff, which puts you in dependency hell. Portage and Apt-get get around this problem.
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