Darasen
Nov 24 2008, 05:38 PM
It is a truism that it is far far easier to criticize than to compliment. I guess it is just part of human nature. I myself am rather critical of Microsoft in many ways especially their ubiquitous Os, Windows. Now I am going to challenge us though and ask a tough question, what does Microsoft do right? I would have to start with their website. Support.microsoft.com is a remarkable source for any issue you might be having with windows or an MS product. Also MSDN.microsoft.com and their technet are a vast source of knowledge for just about anything you may need. There are articles for everyone from PC beginners to advanced programmers available. It is not always easy to find what you are looking for but just plunging into the knowledge base at random one is bound to learn something new. The free stuff they offer: Ms actually does have a decent amount of free products available to the public. the VB .net express as well as the C# and C++ offerings for free are good tools for learning and making lightweight applications. With the free SQL server express you can make client server database applications as well. Good stuff for no cost. Lastly I will mention MS Access. I know that Access has many detractors but as I have stated before I can make a decent living from developing with this one application. Access is able to run the gamut of being a single user database to splitting the data and running it as a client server application. When the Access database functionality reaches it's limits Access still makes a great front end for data stored on larger database management systems. Access functions well as a rapid application development tool and all the code from an Access program can be compiled to an executable to where the user never even sees the normal access window. There may be other things that Microsoft does well. Thus, now it is time for the communities input. What do you think?
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toby
Nov 24 2008, 09:52 PM
Horrible way of getting popular, horrible things along the way (read history and critisim on 'pedia). It's business, they do do it well.
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Quatrux
Nov 24 2008, 10:08 PM
making an OS full of holes, making viruses for it and creating expensive anti virus software is also a big business  making SPAM and creating/paying for SPAM proof systems and etc. is also a business in my opinion, even though a lot of that now are just made by freelancers, even though I read a topic that there is something similar like "SPAM mafia" people who have some hackers, which later ratchet-wheel the company, if it doesn't pay, those "hackers" make their servers send SPAM and their servers being BANNED by different other companies, heh  So I guess there's nothing good created by people who are into business, Microsoft makes software which is hard to understand in some places/occasions, that you would need to hire an engineer or some other people to fix it or to make it work, sometimes even that support fro Microsoft site seems to be to difficult or to big to understand, I usually close their support links found on google by searching for something.. 
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Darasen
Nov 26 2008, 05:56 PM
Oddly this thread seems to have elicited Ms bashing resutls and the How to Improve Windows thread has elicited What MS does right responses. QUOTE So I guess there's nothing good created by people who are into business I am sorry I do not understand this statement. Are you trying to say that there is no good software made that isn't open source? I am sure that can;t be it.
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Quatrux
Nov 26 2008, 07:03 PM
No, that's not what I meant Darasen..  What I meant wasn't really direct, have you ever seen a cartoon Dilbert? If you did, maybe you could get the point, it's just was some form of a joke though.
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xboxrulz
Nov 26 2008, 11:03 PM
One thing Microsoft did that was right was the fact that Windows does have the tools to have fine-grained security, but unfortunately most users don't understand or will use them at all. Thus, nulling the point of including these tools which are not to be found on UNIX systems. However, for me, the biggest thing Microsoft did right this time around is the XBOX 360. Hell, they're outselling the PS3 like hotcakes. Unfortunately for them, the Wii is a better offer to most people. I own both the Wii and XBOX 360, so it doesn't make a difference for me. xboxrulz
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skedad
Nov 27 2008, 12:24 AM
If it weren't for Microsoft being a huge enterprise, we wouldn't have the competition out there that we do. So it is good to criticize if not for the little companies out there that are pumping out the products that Microsoft does.
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docduke
Nov 27 2008, 12:59 AM
I just ran into something Microsoft has improved on. They have previously made a practice of creating new versions of Word, Excel, etc. which used incompatible versions of their data files (word documents, spreadsheets, etc.). This is in marked contrast with Word Perfect, for example, which had the same file formats for more than a decade. Recently, I was emailed a .docx and a .xlsx document, both created by Office 2007 (2008?). Since I have only Office 2003, I couldn't read them. I went looking for a converter. It turned out that Microsoft has such a converter at Microsoft Office Compatibility Pack for Word, Excel, and PowerPoint 2007 File Formats. However, Ms seemed to have real problems with it. It published Microsoft Office Compatibility Pack Service Pack 1 (SP1) less than one month later, and the "Service Pack" is about the same size as the original Converter! I put them both into my computer, and the result did the conversions I wanted. Why the big "Service Pack"? The "conversion" of my files took a long time getting started. (Each was only 2 or 3 pages in length, with nothing fancy inside.) My guess is that it was taking time to make sure I had a legal copy of Ms Office. I don't know what it would have done if I was doing the conversion to read the files in Open Office, but I think there's a good chance the conversion would "fail" if a legal copy of an earlier Ms Office wasn't around.
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xboxrulz
Nov 27 2008, 06:33 AM
I think a better thing for Microsoft was to just adopt ODF. There's no reason for Microsoft to create their own format. It's redundant. xboxrulz
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wutske
Nov 27 2008, 07:54 AM
I must admit that I find it more easy to complain about Microsoft too, rather than highlighting the good things they do. For starters, they do give away a lot of free stuff, especialy at students (atm I have about 3 XP Pro licenses, 2 Vista business licenses, full versions of visual studio, their whole web-development kits, ... ow ... and because our school changed names we got new accounts meaning I have everything double  ). One thing that most people do mention but don't consider as such a big plus is the fact that windows is rather user friendly, compared to linux that is a big advantage. Most people also nag about their hardware not working (anymore) in windows, but windows still has more hardware compatibilty compared to linux (altough that is mostly due to the manufactureres creating drivers for windows and not for linux/MacOs). Of course, their security is still crap, I've had a rootkit a couple of days ago and I still can't believe that files can be totaly invisible and registry keys can be un-deleteable  , but hey ... linux security is crap too, but nobody bothers finding security holes in it
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xboxrulz
Dec 8 2008, 07:41 PM
QUOTE(docduke @ Dec 8 2008, 11:17 AM)  This strategy goes back a long way. I was in college at MIT from 1959 to 1963, and during that time IBM "gave" several generations of computers to the college. At the time, very few businesses used computers. IBM's strategy, which worked very well, was to teach the students to use IBM computers, and expect those students to recommend IBM to their employers when they got out of school. At that time, the mainframe computers IBM sold were quite expensive, so giving them (actually loaning them) to the universities seemed like a big financial risk, but it paid off handsomely for IBM. If it hadn't been for the space program, and its funding of microprocessors, IBM might well be the dominant computer company at this time, and we would be using terminals at home connected to mainframes somewhere else. Interesting how software folks like to use acronyms. I didn't recognize "UAC" so I did a search on it. Indeed, Microsoft is learning to give credit where it is due: Windows UAC compared to Linux Sudo. Now I know, finally,  that UAC means User Access (or Account) Control. Actually, the general concept goes back to the 1970s, when remote access via terminals first became common. The thing that makes it more complex now is the very widespread access to the internet, which invites the introduction of malware. If somebody around here can point me at a basic explanation of which UAC systems are really effective at preventing malware infections on any platform, I would like to see it. Thanks!  Well, the concept of UAC is just to elevate the user to have "administrator" rights to perform things that only administrators could do. Unfortunately for Windows users, unlike UNIX, Windows doesn't really have a real set boundary between "user" folders. Regular users can still write to anywhere on the disc as long as it's not the Program Files or WINDOWS folder. In UNIX, only the root can write to any folder except /home (or $HOME, depending on UNIX setup). Obviously, if the admin allows users to write to certain folders outside of their home directory, that is fine. The idea of UAC is basically like sudo, kdesu or gnomesu, where it allows temporary access to administrator tasks that allows the users to do anything they can as long as the sudo, kdesu or gnomesu is activated for that session. Pre-Windows Vista era, in order to install programs or do any administrative tasks, you had to run yourself as an administrator. This poses a large security risk since the average user doesn't want to be bothered by constantly reminding themselves to right-click and then select "Run As". Heck, most users don't even know that exists, so they just automatically make themselves administrator. This allows malware to easy infiltrate the computer. In order to lower the chances, all accounts are defaulted to become a regular user (like in UNIX) and require all administrator to press Continue to confirm all administrative tasks. Yes, it can get annoying since Microsoft loves to treat you as if you're actually dumb. That's why many users got fed up with UAC. This is supposed to be fixed for the next version of Windows, Windows 7. Windows 7 is suppose to allow you to control how many notifications you will receive (even the dumbest option to allow you to turn it off). I run my Windows Server 2008 installation as a regular user and I don't mind typing the administrator password to install or to perform administrative tasks because I'm so used to that with UNIX. It's a great practice, it just amazes me how long it took Microsoft finally woke up to this minor solution to the bigger problem. UAC saves computers, more Windows XP-users should realize that. At first I criticized it before I started realizing that it's just a more annoying version to what MacOS X, KDE and GNOME had for their respective systems. Also, as usual, Microsoft slanted that UAC vs. sudo comparison. Unlike their comparison, sudo usually REQUIRE users to type in their password and to answer their 100 users question, the easiest way is to assign those 100 users into a group and assign them to be able to access sudo and require the root password in order to commit root access. Here's a sample of my sudoers file on my home server:  As you can see, instead of assigning people one by one, I can assign the whole pwrusers group, and must require them to enter their passwords to confirm their actions. Anyone in other groups will NOT be able to continue. xboxrulz
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docduke
Dec 8 2008, 04:17 PM
QUOTE(Darasen @ Nov 29 2008, 10:14 PM)  MS does tend to give stuff to students, especially in the IT courses. I think it is kind of like some crack dealers though where the first hit is free. They want a teeming mass of computer science grads that have grown up familiar with MS and little else. This strategy goes back a long way. I was in college at MIT from 1959 to 1963, and during that time IBM "gave" several generations of computers to the college. At the time, very few businesses used computers. IBM's strategy, which worked very well, was to teach the students to use IBM computers, and expect those students to recommend IBM to their employers when they got out of school. At that time, the mainframe computers IBM sold were quite expensive, so giving them (actually loaning them) to the universities seemed like a big financial risk, but it paid off handsomely for IBM. If it hadn't been for the space program, and its funding of microprocessors, IBM might well be the dominant computer company at this time, and we would be using terminals at home connected to mainframes somewhere else. QUOTE Also, Microsoft realizes that they need to implement ideas from other software/technologies. This includes the UAC from Linux Interesting how software folks like to use acronyms. I didn't recognize "UAC" so I did a search on it. Indeed, Microsoft is learning to give credit where it is due: Windows UAC compared to Linux Sudo. Now I know, finally,  that UAC means User Access (or Account) Control. Actually, the general concept goes back to the 1970s, when remote access via terminals first became common. The thing that makes it more complex now is the very widespread access to the internet, which invites the introduction of malware. If somebody around here can point me at a basic explanation of which UAC systems are really effective at preventing malware infections on any platform, I would like to see it. Thanks!
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xboxrulz
Dec 7 2008, 06:10 PM
I can't really say competition for software and operating systems. They basically own a monopoly with Windows and their Office software, so Microsoft is the anti-thesis to competition. Also, user-friendly-ness is relative. vi in Linux although looks and works archaic, it is quite simple after you learn and get the hang of it. A lot of things in Linux is easier than it is on Windows. Plus, Macs are more "user-friendly" in your sense than Windows will ever be. I think user-friendly-ness has now become ... how much less effort it takes a user to learn the software. xboxrulz
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FirefoxRocks
Dec 7 2008, 05:29 AM
Microsoft has introduced competition for software and operating systems, however this can also lead to antitrust issues that is famous with Microsoft, especially in Europe. Microsoft also has extensive documentation on support (KnowledgeBase and Technet documents). Also, Microsoft realizes that they need to implement ideas from other software/technologies. This includes the UAC from Linux (which is absolutely amazing!) and things like AJAX in Hotmail and stuff. Although it is fairly different in some areas (open document support, etc), the programs do include more features than free or open-source alternatives. Finally, the most important thing to most users is user-friendliness.With Linux, it is not user-friendly (even Debian isn't when compared to Windows or Mac). Windows and Office are very user friendly and thus appeal to many users.
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xboxrulz
Dec 5 2008, 02:31 AM
QUOTE(The_Fury @ Dec 3 2008, 05:06 AM)  I agree, the Xbox has been a very good product from start to finish and while i do not use any Microsoft products directly i will say that some of their development tools are pretty neat, .net has huge potential and being and open standard as long as MS plays nice the Mono project on Linux could make this an appealing development environment. Indeed the C# is helping Microsoft's image. However, many developers still prefer Java over C#. Maybe in the future this may change. I myself prefer Java. System.out.println("I love Java =D"); xboxrulz
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