Does God Exist?

I would say that the initial question is a bad question. I think nobody here can answer the question "does god exist". The real question, and each one of us can answer it, is "do you believe in God ?". And of course, once the answer is "yes", the second step must be "do you think that this god is unique ?". Some religions have several gods (one of war, one for love, one for rain, etc..) Some other religions think that God is a unique being, although you might name Him in several ways (Yahve, Jehovah, Vishnou), he il all by himself, auto-sufficient. And of course he has te be allmighty, being everywhere at the same moment, albe to ear each of us but we should not disturb him too often for neglectible questions. I don't know why Science is systematically opposed to religion. Maybe because science is unable to prove existence or non-existence of any Divinity. Being unable to prove the non-existence of God does not prove that he exists. This simply proves that they belong to separate existence plans.

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I do belive in god because if u read the bible it was stated that they would have a major diease and that is hiv and the wars that he said would is happing and people dying everyday sometimes he dosent answer my prayers but somedays he does and he bleesed me with two wonderful chirlden that i love and they love me.But i think one this world will end as was predicted in the bible hope not in my lifetime.

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In this post, I will not offer anything towards the existence of God, nor towards the opposite case.
However, it should be noted that many of the arguments used in this topic are prime examples of circular reasoning.

You can not use theology or any books of theology (i.e., Bible, Qur'an, etc.) to prove the existence of God. Theology presupposes the existence of God. How can you have a branch of reasoning devoted to the study of God if there isn't one? You can't; therefore, God must exist in order for theology to be useful and true. That being said, it should be clear why theology can not be used in proofs for God's existence -- if you were to use theology, obviously you'd of already had to prove God exists, or assumed it. Any series of deductions based on even a single assumption is completely unreliable.

Some may also want to quip Anselm's ontological arguement for the existance of God. He describes there are being two possible cases:
God doesn't exist and He is only imaginary
God exists and He is also imaginary (that is, that He is in our imagination as well as His real existence)
Anselm goes on to define God as a "being than which nothing greater can be conceived". That is, that there is nothing better or even thinkable than God. So the question is thus: which is greater of the two former cases? (For sake of clarity, consider the imaginary case as A, imaginary alone, and the case of the actuality as A+B, imaginary and actual. A + B is obviously greater in value than A.) Basic deduction would lead you to say that God existing both actually and mentally is greater, which is true.

But this is not a proof of God's existence. Rather, this is a logical trap -- another circular arguement. This proof of God's existence presupposes that God exists. If God didn't exist, the definition of what God is would not apply and we would never have gotten stuck in this trap. The reason this is an invalid arguement is that you can never enter it. The two arguements chase each others' tails in a circle, with no end, and no beginning.
If we were to jump into this arguement simply because it works, we could jump into all sorts of lies. Consider:
Why should we drive on the right side of the road?
Because that is the law. And the law is the law.
But people also drive on the left side of the roads, because that is the law where they are from. An argument with the basic structure of "A is A because A is A" should be laughed and scorned at, not taken to heart in one of life's most perennial questions.

Moving on to personal case studies, that is, personal experiences, these are also unreliable. Sensation and perception can not be relied on. The stove didn't seem hot before you put your hand on it. And the straw doesn't really bend when it's submerged underwater. There isn't really toast burning, you're just in deeeeeeeeep trouble. Things don't really shrink when you walk away from them. Hot peppers aren't actually hot. Sensation can be distorted by thousands of every day things.
While it is true that sensation is used in scientific discovery, it is used alongside of tools. If there were a scientific way to prove the existence of God, I would be all for it. Saying; however, that you can sense or feel God's [insert random chosen adjective here] or presence is completely ridiculous. Can you also feel the number I have in my head? Or see what colour my aura is? Probably not. And don't ever bring the word "feel" into a rational argument.

The best way I have seen to prove the existence of God is Aquinas' theory of medieval synthesis [The most famous quote of this is "since therefore grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it." Here, grace is theology, and nature is philosophy. Aquinas reasoned that philosophy could not aquire divine knowledge -- and it's true. Or at least I've yet to encounter any perfect arguements for the divine. To compensate for philosophy's ineptness, Aquinas reasoned that we must also apply theology, or take Divine Revelation by faith, in order to learn of the divine. Problem : you can not use theology as a way to argue the existence of God!!
In respect to the other proofs offered by Aquinas (namely, from the first article of the first question), from what I have read of his Summa (only the first question -- it's dull stuff and insanely long. That one page is 1/10 of one of the questions. Aquinas compiled 99 questions plus two appendices, basically questions, into the Summa Theologiae) they seem to be mostly cop-outs. For example, the arguement of efficient cause states that something had to cause the existence of things. That must be God. There's a bit of a jump there, considering nothing ties the required spark of existence to God besides folklore (though those who believe in God have no trouble believing that there is nothing that sparked His existence), and, furthermore, it assigns a role to God before proving that He exists. In the end, we are to infer that God exists because he does a plethora of things like that. Again, a circular argument.

In short:
No more Bible. No more Qur'an. No more stories of internal experiences. They aren't reliable.
And besides, you don't read the Bible or the Qur'an. They simply no longer exist, especially the Bible. There have been so many alterations of the original text that there is no way to tell what the original said. For example, the Bible says, on homosexuality, that if man does unto man as man does unto women it's a horrible sin. The original text was ambigious. A more accurate translation could have been "if man do unto people as man do unto person" (i.e., orgy). And anyone who can quip the King James Bible as the Word of God has got the be kidding. The Bible wasn't written in English. I do not know much about the Qur'an, but I assume there are those who would quote English translations (and transliterations, due to errors) as Divine Word.
Unless you can find a manuscript, you most likely are not reading His words. Are you familiar with telephone tag?
Use cold hard reason and facts.


And on the subject of proving that something does not exist, how do you do that if science and reason have thus far proved unsuccessful?
Do we agree that something either exists or doesn't, or is there a shared quality defining things that neither exist nor not exist?
Surely, in disproving the existance of something, you are proving that it doesn't exist.

 

 

 

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I personally don't believe in God, but I think it's a good thing that many people believe in something. I do believe that thinking positively will get your positive things for your life. Same goes for negative thoughts.

So that's what I see good about religion, you're thinking good positive stuff, which in the end will bring you good things to your life. Plus, you believe in a God that is somehow protecting you and that you can pray for stuff you want. If you have a sick child or relative, you pray to God and have faith that your loved one will get better. While there might not be a "God" taking care of your loved one, I'm certain that your prayers to "God" will translate into positive thoughts and therefore good things, like your loved one getting better, and when a lot of people do the same, that's a lot of positive thinking.

Why don't I believe in God? maybe because I need to see things before I believe it, I'm a man of facts, I don't believe the earth was created in seven days, I believe in evolution, that makes the most sense, again, for me, a man of facts.

How would religion explain the bad things happening to the world if God only wants good things to us? Oh yeah, that's why they invented the devil too. It's all a well-made story put together in ancient times. But don't get me wrong, if you believe in God (and you should) then it's ok. For you, God exists and you're happy. For me, God doesn't exists and I'm happy too.

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God existed. look at the places around u... Look at the universe...look at the world's nature... do u tink it all happened cz of BIG BANG??

GOD DID IT!!

Enaf proof d.

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Yes, GOD exists. How come we people have a very perfect brain if we originated on monkeys(Evolution stuff). Where did the sun came from? the galaxy? and the earth if GOD do not exist.

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This is one of my favourite topics to debate about, so I'm really glad it's been brought up. Here we go, .

One of my first, and main points is the following. Some of the first main Gods were those of the Greeks (e.g. Zeus, Athena, Ares, etc.). They "ruled" for several hundred years, and many myths and legends were made up. However, once the Romans took power, the gods 'changed' - different names (Jupiter, Artemis, Mars) but basically the same Gods. Now, for nearly a thousand years, these Deities "existed", exacting worship and prayer from millions of people. However, all of a sudden, Jesus Christ appears in 0 A.D, and a whole new God is suddenly created, who supposedly made the entire Universe? Then, when the Emperor Constantine came around (Somewhere in the late 300's) the Pagan gods simply... disappeared! The Christian God suddenly became the ruling being of Earth (or at least Europe). I don't believe that Gods which held power for thousands of years could suddenly vanish, and some newbie pops up and takes over completely. Beliefs that had been around for ages were worthless, and the new ones, about events that happened BILLIONS of years before suddenly comes up? It sounds a bit suspicious to me.

My second point is this: There are billions of Christians on Earth (Yes, this is the religion I'm focusing on), yet "God" lets tens of thousands die every day? Young children, babies even, who have never had a chance in life simply don't deserve to live. Yet rich "Christians" in North America and Europe live in enormous houses and are "good Christians" because they go to Church once a week, and donate $100 at Christmas. I don't see how anyone can call them self a true Christian while they still have a single penny, and aren't wearing rags. It sickens me how many people I see who are rich and do nothing to help the others in their world, while believing they're strong followers of ANY religion.

Now, my third point. God sends disasters upon man kind to "punish them for their sins". To me, any true god would not let any people die, no matter what they had done. No matter what someone does, no one truly DESERVES death before their time. Any real god would never allow war, hunger, disaster, or sickness to happen at all! They had the power to create universes, why can't they stop a war from happening on one measly planet?

My fourth point: The papacy. It absolutely SICKENS me when I see how the Pope, and other high Bishops of the Papal Government live. They have extravagant vehicles, clothes, and food. The Pope is supposedly the closest person to Christ on Earth, yet how could he be so unlike Jesus and be so close? Jesus gave all he had for others, and even if he wasn't the son of god, he truly was a great man. The Pope and other Bishops on the other hand live like Kings, while millions of others are starving and dying of sickness. If all of the billions of dollars that the Church has went to the poor, the world would be a much better place, and the Pope would be more of a true Christian. Also, all of the buildings that have been made through the centuries - yes, they are all very beautiful, but if I was a God, I would not care the least about it. I would prefer that it instead is sold to make money for the needy. After all, isn't that what it says in the Bible?

My fifth and final point of this "mini essay" is: All of the other modern Gods. There are probably over a dozen Religions in the world at this time, and all of them believe in different Gods. I don't understand how all different Gods could have all created the same universe, when each religion claims "their" god did it? There are billions of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, and millions of others in the world, yet they all believe that their ideas are true. If someone can logically explain to me how the Ancient Gods simply disappeared, and the others "sprang up", I may very well become religious (yes I am an Athiest).

That's my two cents .

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Ok I hope no one takes this personally, this is my point of view about religion.

Hey Maxfelgar, I agree with you with some on your statements. But I must say, I do NOT believe in God as they try to describe it.
Some say he's the Creator of all things, he brings miracles and hope to the people.

Let me tell you what I think.

I recently watched this movie "The Secret", that is (obviously) about a secret, that was well hidden from regular people, and only important people we know nowadays have been linked somehow to the knowledge of that secret. Basically the secret is about "thinking" positive stuff, always positive, and you will get good stuff. For example, if you want a car, you should always think of the car, but not just that, also thinking that you WILL OWN it, or that you actually own it, and those thoughts are sent to the universe and they come back as positive stuff.

At first I was skeptical about that idea, but now that I think of it, it all now makes sense. Religion and the secret. What is religion all about? at least I can tell from a Christian Point of view (I was one). They always make you think positively, that a God up there is watching over you, and that you should pray to him and never commit sins and whatever. All that stuff leads to thinking positively, which would translate (according to "the secret") into good stuff sent from the universe. So to sum it up, religions are there to make you use "the secret" without actually being aware of it.

I will say this once more, I do not believe in God as they portray it, like the father of Jesus or something, the "Creator" or anything of that sort. I don't believe that "God" (image of a man) created earth and life as we know it. I, as a scientist man, believe in actual facts, like evolution. I also believe in the Big Bang Theory, which tells that a huge explosion took place in the universe that created planets and stuff. If you want to call that energy that caused the big bang "god" then OK, that might be your God, but not a "man" or something that is in the sky or something.

I also don't believe in church. Probably because in most christian religions (that I know of), they ask you for money and most of the time you don't know where that money is going to. Yeah because, being a "Father", is a job like any other, and you need to receive your monthly payment. I get it.

But there's this one thing I must say about religion, part good part very wrong. For example, if it wasn't because of religion, stealing/killing or other sins will be OK, or at least a killer or a thief will not feel bad when performing such acts, because they do feel bad when they think of God after what they did. So if it wasn't for religion, they wouldn't feel bad at all. But that same thing is also very very wrong. Why? Because, Religion is what have caused War in the World. While Religion tells you about peace, and brotherhood, love, they together do the exact opposite. One Religion doesn't come along too good with other religions, and if there weren't any, I think terrorism wouldn't exist.

And also for me, that "God or Devil" stuff is just crazy. I mean, if a miracle happens, they all say "thank god!", but if something happens they inmediately blame the devil. There is where balance takes place. I guess you all are familiar with the ying yang, good/bad, black/white, etc etc. Not everything that happens in the world is good, because there are bad things too that religion couldn't explain, so they also created a devil figure, to blame for all the things that go wrong. And it's logical, because people always need someone to ask favors to, like God, and someone to blame for bad things that happen, like the Devil. Now, imagine that you are in a dark alley, and suddenly you see a man with a gun or weapon running towards you. What would you do? I'll tell you what I would do; pray to God. And I don't believe in God! but why? because that's the good thing about religion, you can always have someone inside you to ask for favors or to simply talk to. You have 'God' there with you, if it wasn't for God, then what else could I have done to protect myself? I'm not saying that by praying to God that man would have just walked by (might happen), but at least praying to God in such situation gives you HOPE, and you are the one who choose to have faith in God or not. I choose not, but I'll pray to God anyways if something bad is about to happen, just because we, people, need someone to ask for help.

So I'm sorry if I'm hurting anyone's feeling, it's just my opinion. I do respect those who choose to be religious or to believe in God. Believing in God is a good thing, you'll probably be happier than me, but now that I understand things, now that I see the big picture, I can be happy knowing that God does not exist, for me. I'll say this once more, Religion is a good thing, believing in god is a good thing, and everyone should believe in God, because the day we choose not to, that will be the end of life.

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You made me think of another point, Mike. If there was no religion in the world at all, there would have been virtually NO wars *ever*. Think about it: The Crusades, World War 1 and 2, and in some ways the Korean/Vietnam War all were influenced by religion. If there hadn't been any there would hardly be any reason to fight.

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I do not believe god exists. I was raised as a Presbyterian (Christian), however, as I became a teenager, and learned more about Science, I started believing ideas related closer to Darwinism and believing less about God. Also, since many other things in the Bible hads been proven wrong I had no reason to believe any of it. However, when people relate to God as a form of energy, I could find somewhat of an understanding in that.

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