Replying to Religion Isn't That Bad...

Since this thread seems to tackle many different issues, I'll try to express my opinion as briefly as I can, and hope that I nonetheless convey my thoughts correctly and thoroughly.


I'm an agnostic, and I thus don't believe that it's possible for us to know for sure whether there's actually a god or not. But after studying a good number of current major religions, I came to the conclusion that none of those religions can be a revelation by the Supreme Being that created this universe, if that being does exist.


But that's my own conviction. Yes, I believe it's built on very sound grounds, but I suppose that's how everyone feels about their belief/logic/religion/etc. So the following thoughts will assume that no religion is a Godly one, i.e. revealed by a God.


First of all, it seems that a lot of religious people believe that, without religion, people will turn immoral and unethical, and basically become thieves and murderers. I tend to wholeheartedly disagree. Religion don't have a monopoly on ethics and morals, as any objective observer would most likely conclude. Just compare Europe (as an example of a continent with a predominantly non-religious population) to North America (as an example of a continent with a predominantly religious population, statistics-wise).


I admit that most religions do promote ethics and morals. The problem is that those morals are static. They don't change with time; they can't. For example, in ancient Egypt, it was a rather common practice for a man to marry his sister. It was even a royal custom. It wasn't "immoral" back then. But religion came and made it so. And now, incestuous relations are a spreading phenomenon. I'm not advocating either situation here; I'm merely trying to show that religious morals have to always remain the same, even if time proves that they aren't practical or reasonable.


Naturally, there are those morals that are universally acceptable, such as honesty, good manners, etc. But then again, religion doesn't have a monopoly on those, either. Most philosophers, thinkers, even politicians promote the same thing.



Conclusion #1: One can't say that religion is the only way to be "good." (I won't delve into a critical discussion of goodness now, don't worry )



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Now back to the original idea of this thread, which was "Religion Isn't That Bad..."


Honestly, I largely agree!


You see, just as religion doesn't have a monopoly on morals, it doesn't have a monopoly on ignorance, cruelty, or self-indulgence, either. Those are human traits; it's up to US to choose which traits we adopt. Religions doesn't make us "good," but it doesn't make us "bad," either. BUT...


Most religions provide a "Control Mechanism" for their clergies. Be it Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion, their "Holy Books" contain words. Words are interpretable by people. And for most religious folk, they accept the interpretation of the Clergy as true. So it becomes up to the clergy to decide what those "holy" texts say... THEY get to deem *this* good and *that* bad. So if the clergy is corrupted, the religious followers are consequentially corrupted. If the clergy declares a Holy War is in order, then it's time for a blood bath, because hey, God wills it, right?


Conclusion #2:
Religion isn't good or bad in and of itself... it only has the potential to be either this or that. Or even both, as an aspect of it can be good while another is bad.



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And, to conclude this long (and, I know, rather boring ) post, I'll say this...


If a certain religion can be attributed to the Creator, and the Creator tells us (through the texts of that religion) to either follow it or go to Hell (quite literally), then I believe this religion should be followed, no questions asked!


But, even then, we have to come up with a way to limit the infinite power the clergy has. And by "we," I mean believers AND non-believers. Because this is a matter that affects all of us, as human beings who share the same space, time, and dimension.


Finally, I apologize for my faulty use of English grammar. I tried my best to make this post as comprehensible as possible, and I'm sorry if it wasn't quite so.




All the best

You know after watching a film like "Water" one can really get the impression that religion is a tool of those in power to get those without the power to tamely accept their abuses and injustices without fighting back. But what this point of view fails to realize is that these religions were not constructed for this purpose but twisted later for this purpose. Anything can be twisted and abused as tools for those in power and I don't even think that this is done consciously. The real problem is lies in the nature of human beings to manipulate others and everything else to serve their own desires. We are all victims of a spiritual disease that make the maxim "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", a fundamental truth of human nature.

The irony is that many if not all religions seek to combat this very spritual disease. Yet as always in the battle between good and evil, evil often seems to have the upper hand, and as a result even the small victories of good requires some faith that a victory is possible, because the evidence often makes it look rather hopeless. Building and creating things requires hard work and imagination, but destruction is so much easier. Evil derives from laziness and complacency.

I consider myself religious and believe in one God. However, I have often wondered whether being religious = being moral = being ethical. It should be but sometimes we get people who seem religious doing all short of wrong things (like killing people in the name of their God! for example).

So how do we measure religiousity? It is by the number of time you pray, or go to the church/ temple/ mosque, charity work, starving yourself, etc. etc. Maybe all of these are the outward showy things considered important when it is what is inside you that really matters.

Well religion is nothing but the teachings to be and act in a socity. All religion teaches one thing broadly that is to be good to one another.

What is wrong is how we interpret things...saying in religions and use it as per our whimps and fancy.

Tell me which reliagion teaches to be cruel to other, to kill or hurt others but for the sake and name of religion we do what ever we wnat and what we our pleased with and then give it the name of religion. The way we preach religion . the way and the things that we our thought in the name of religion. We all our responsible citizens of our countries...so let's be good to others and to ourselves.

If you hate the name religion give those teaching some other name. What is more important is to be good to others.

Mind you Religion, rituals, sprituality, etc are not the same... they might be lingked some way or the other.

Y'know, religion isn't that bad. It promotes morals and ethics, it can take the most crooked individual and put him on the straight and arrow (it did wonders for Bush) and it brings people together.
So, yeah, religion looks good on paper. But y'know what else?

SO DID COMMUNISM.

And the irony is that if there is a God, that is, a God in the sense that is described in ANY major religion, then right now he's shamefully shaking his head while he watches us jack off to our lastest STOLEN porn and enjoying our indulgent freedoms while we pretend to follow his teachings.

The rabbis are eating pork and the priests are fondeling chior boys and everyone is sinner in some way, in some form, according to these religious documents. But y'know what else?

NOT EVERYONE IS A BAD PERSON.

So what does this tell us? Quite simply, religion is good... to an extent. And all the wars and battles and everything bad that has ever happened in the name of "God" happened because they took "God" too seriously.

They took RELIGION too seriously.

Eh just no. I'll write a little rant about this while I am waiting for a CD to finish writing. Basically you are saying that we, people with beliefs in religion, need comfort. Yet we can accept alot more things than no believers can't. We don't need to touch the edge of the universe. We don't need to know the exact size of pi. There are some things in this world that aren't explained.

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I don't doubt that there are things that humans cannot, as yet, understand. Some people accept that, others invent religous answers.

There have been times when I have been majorly down and nothing can stop things that are going to happen. So I prayed. And I know you won't believe a word I say, but those things changed. Slightly to make things better for me. Now would they have happened anyway?

Actually, yes. If you are down it is more likely that you will go up, simply because of the law of averages. If you had prayed and nothing had improved, would that mean that nothing was out there? You can't have it both ways.

And ever since I became a Christian, I've had the best friends I've ever had. You saying we walk around with a bible is like us saying you run about all day trying to prove that the universe is finite and hence trying to find the meaning of all existence. Now that really is absurd.

Well, this image occurs because there are people who DO run around with a bible and shove it people who call themselves christians. Since there are many types of people who call themselves christian it makes it hard to differentiate using only that word.

As a Christian I've had to face a lot of things like this topic. People asking questions even though they cover their eyes when an answer is given and ignore it.

Well, I don't think they are covering their eyes so much as pointing out inconsistencies and problems with the validity of the answer, but I can't be sure since you gave no examples.

Yet why ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to? I ask questions to know the answers. So why make a topic, or post in this topic, if you are just going to throw everything we say back in our face? It's like those "Individualist" kids you see all over the place, yet they hang around together, listen to the same music, wear the same clothes...basically they try to validate their reason to be cool with an answer that they think proves they are not being cool.

Yes, most people who are rebels and such form their own normality. However, this may include you.

As for throwing stuff back in your face, you seem to have a very "us vs. them" mentality. It could be that some people are just pointing out what they see as inconsistencies in your beliefs. Chances are, some are just being assholes and some are simply being logical and happening not to agree with you.

Recognize this, and realize that part of the problem may also be that you can't tell the groups apart.

Probably by now you've either stopped reading, think I'm a total loser or are actually listening to what I've got to say.

I am listening, so I hope you do me the same courtesy. However, realize that my disagreeing with you is not me considering you a loser or anything like that. If you read my posts, I am harsh and critical when it comes to logic. Its not about you.

If, at the end of the day, we all croak and poof into nowhere why do we bother. After all how can a clump of cells living in a society actually feel guilt and sadness towards each other. When your mum dies... who cares? Why would we care. We're just here to survive for as long as we can so why waste valuable living time grieving?

As for why to bother(not sure what you mean by the whole why bother thing, but I will take a stab at it), I bother because I decide to enjoy life. Because I enjoy the people around me, because it beats the alternatives even.

A clump of cells(a human) feels guilt and sadness and such because of evolved higher brain function. It is usefull for the group, but that is a bit off topic. Of course, you probably want a more spiritual answer, so here goes:
We feel because the people we meet in life add something to our own. While people walk around with the concept of *I* we are at least as much a product of our interactions with others as any other factor, if not more. When those around us are hurt or dye, then we are hurt or a part us dies. This does not mean that all emotion is really selfish, but instead that the best of life is to be truly selfless. Harboring things to oneself is to commit a form of suicide.

It seems to me the other way round. The "secure" people want to feel like they are someone in the world, like they matter, that they dont care about afterlife, but yet deep deep down inside we all cry when someone we love dies. It's the way we were created and science will never explain it.

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You know that saying about never saying never.....

Anyway, I think you are misunderstanding the point others are making. Some feel that religion is bad because it divides mankind and has been responsible for terrible suffering. Part of what they are now realizing is that it can also ease suffering.

It is less about religion or christianity in particular but about how to get the easing of suffering without the killing and division.

The part about the crutch should be interpreted as so: "religious people" (usually far right christians) these days are proclaiming things that are known to be false. Silly stuff that really doesnt have to be part of christianity and sometimse just straight up isn't. The interpretation given to these events is that the "religious people" just can't handle the truth(about whatever small thing is the focus) and that religion is their excuse, their crutch, for this fact.

This isn't the only reason for the crutch sentiment, but its a rather central one and the others are pretty similar.

Eh just no. I'll write a little rant about this while I am waiting for a CD to finish writing. Basically you are saying that we, people with beliefs in religion, need comfort. Yet we can accept alot more things than no believers can't. We don't need to touch the edge of the universe. We don't need to know the exact size of pi. There are some things in this world that aren't explained.

There have been times when I have been majorly down and nothing can stop things that are going to happen. So I prayed. And I know you won't believe a word I say, but those things changed. Slightly to make things better for me. Now would they have happened anyway?

And ever since I became a Christian, I've had the best friends I've ever had. You saying we walk around with a bible is like us saying you run about all day trying to prove that the universe is finite and hence trying to find the meaning of all existence. Now that really is absurd.

As a Christian I've had to face a lot of things like this topic. People asking questions even though they cover their eyes when an answer is given and ignore it. People calling us stupid, insecure and weak.

Yet why ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to? I ask questions to know the answers. So why make a topic, or post in this topic, if you are just going to throw everything we say back in our face? It's like those "Individualist" kids you see all over the place, yet they hang around together, listen to the same music, wear the same clothes...basically they try to validate their reason to be cool with an answer that they think proves they are not being cool.

Probably by now you've either stopped reading, think I'm a total loser or are actually listening to what I've got to say.

If, at the end of the day, we all croak and poof into nowhere why do we bother. After all how can a clump of cells living in a society actually feel guilt and sadness towards each other. When your mum dies... who cares? Why would we care. We're just here to survive for as long as we can so why waste valuable living time grieving?

It seems to me the other way round. The "secure" people want to feel like they are someone in the world, like they matter, that they dont care about afterlife, but yet deep deep down inside we all cry when someone we love dies. It's the way we were created and science will never explain it.

Webguide- some people don't need it as an incentive for moral values, such as myself and most likely you and others who don't believe in a religion... But for those who do, religion will be, like I just said, an incentive.  They believe in some invisible guy watching over them.  They believe in mystical forces around them.  And they believe that if you do something wrong, you pay for it.  Therefore, religion will act as a moral enforcer.  Don't be bad or you'll go to hell...

And Yamato has proved my point.  She is must happier since religion. 
"Ignorance is bliss"  I believe is the expression.  Now, I am in no way saying Yamato is ignorant, so don't misunderstand.  She sounds like a very bright girl.  But, she did, like I have said earlier in this thread, find comfort.  She's more accepting of people.  She's happier.  She's less pessimistic.

So, what does it matter if she's believing in a lie?  As long as she's happy, and she doesn't go off on a holy war because she thinks God wants her to or anything like that, there's nothing wrong with religion.
Now, if she said, "George Bush is great because God wants him to be president..."  Then, we'd have a problem.  But that problem doesn't occur with all religious believers luckily.

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Yes, I agree with you that some people need this crutch, but last year at least non-believers were the fastest rising group. Our number is growing even faster then Islam (well only by 1%). So there's some hope at least.