This article is just a Critical Analysis, and in no way a fool proof claim. I haven't been to the past, so I use Logic.

Globally Accepted Facts
Hinduism - Factually accepted to be the Oldest Religion
Vedas - Factually accepted to be the Oldest Religious Script as well as the Oldest written Document (hence symbolising the most ancient literate society)
Aryans (Aryas') - The common race from which Europeans and Indians (also Irani's) are known to have been derived. Aryan is derived from the Sanskrit word 'Arya' meaning 'A Noble Person'. Unfortunately a psycho German tainted the term, but 'Arya' was never a race, but a society of people with one belief. But yes Indian race is just a tanned version of the caucassian race (genetically proved).
Proto-Indo-Europeans - The Aryans (Europeans and Indians) were known to be a single society at one distant point of time, which we cannot trace. Hence Philosophists call it Proto-Indo-European era.
Proto-Indo-European - The common language from which Latin/Greek/Sanskrit were derived, and in turn from which the modern day Languages have been derived. English is a very close derivative of Sanskrit, as we will see.
Aryan Invasion Theory - Max Muller, a British Linguist, bred a theory called the Aryan Invasion theory, after realising that the Language spoken in the Indian Subcontinent was very much similar to his. According to him, Aryans originated in eastern Europe/Central Asia (Southern Russian Steppes). A pack of them migrated south and formed the 'Vedic India'. (The theory is flawed, as we will see).


Now I begin a quest into what the old civilization might have been like. Assuming Hinduism was formed after one segment of Aryans moved south into Northern India, we will be admitting that the initial Proto-Indo-European (PIE) society didn't have an organised religion. But however we see that the one of the very core English words, MAN, is derived from a Hindu mythology of a person called "Manu". In hindi we call "man" Manav and in Sanskrit, Manushya (Manu + Shishya = Followers of Manu).

Hinduism existed in the PIE period
It is known that the word "Manu" is synonymous with the Vedas. Manu, the saviour of mankind, is hailed throughout all the four Vedas. Hence either Vedas were written prior to emmigration, or somehow the word travelled north back to the Northern residents and got in popular use. The latter case is straight away impractical. Every european culture has the word "Manu" as the root of the word "Man" but none provide a legend behind it. Also, the word never travelled north, since the Aryan invasion theory is flawed, as we see later. Hence Vedas were written prior to seperation. Hence the PIE society did follow Hinduism or Vedic Culture to be precise.

Indian's aren't Aryans migrated from the North
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A760240
Check that link, and look at the last Ice Age periods. Considering we still had 'Cold Snaps' till 3000BC, it's evident that the best place to inhibit (in Asia/Europe) was India for the past 20,000 years. Supporters of Aryan Invasion Theory claim that Veda's describe War with local inhabitants of India. Yes, true, and it also says that those local inhabitants (dursyaas) were eliminated in the battle. I agree that aryans did migrate into India from the North but they were the original tribal aryans that existed 15000 years back. 15000 years back man had just learned to cultivate crops and live a civilized life, form society and protect its existence. There may not even be a formal spoken language, let alone a written language or script. To explain that, suppose I have just learned to write and I sit down to write Indian History, I will write, "The greatest Indian King of all time was Ashoka, the sinner turned saint, the emperor who ruled from dawn to dusk (east to west)." Then I also go on to mention that the best modern day Prime Minister of India was "AB Vajpayee". What I miss is the time gap. There is a gap of 2300 years. Veda's describe everything in accurate detail, but fail to mention the Timeline. It seems everything is described in quick succession, but actually, a long span of time has been covered in "Past Tense". So when Historians analyse the Vedas, they are simply unable to decipher the time line codes.
So what's the proof that Aryan's didnt come from north? The fact that not even a Single European land is mentioned in the Vedas. Ofcourse, that place was uninhabitable for a long period. Veda's never speak of comming down from the North. It just mentions the capturing of land around the River Saraswati and killing of Dursyas. I had a speak with an Archeologist and he supported the Timeline misguidance concept. The killing of Dursyas and settling around river saraswati was an ancient History, when man had just learnt the art cultivation and civilization.

Flaw of the Aryan Invasion Theory
Aryan Invasion Theory has been contradicted all together with the Discovery of the Ancient City of Dwarka which is submerged in the sea as of now (and as described in Mythology). The city dates to be as old as 7000 years. The Aryans were known to have arrived in India only by 3000-1500BC. So how come a city 7000 years old, located at the exact spot where the Sacred Hindu text, Mahabharata describes it to be, was found? And above all, unlike most discovered ancient cities, this one is Submerged in the sea, exactly as happened in Mahabharata. The Mahabharata very clearly states that the city sank in the sea after the death of Lord Krishna. Not only does this discovery INTENSIFY the truth factor behind Mahabharata, it converts the Mythology factor to History factor.

The society described in Mahabharata was the PIE Society
Yes, now this would be the major claim. From here, I would like you to research a bit on Mahabharata, and judge for yourself. Mahabharata describes a Very Very advanced society with modern infrastructure. Any person well versed with the literature, would deem it to be fictional, due to the sheer amount of advancement described.
I believe that it was the PIE society that was described then. They spoke Sanskrit (what about Greek/Latin?), and believed in the Vedic Culture. Vedic culture was even more sophisticated than the present day Hinduism.

Why was Sanskrit the PIE Language? Why not Greek or Latin?
Study Sanskrit and you will know for yourself. It is the MOST ADVANCED AND MOST WELL DEFINED LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD. This is not a claim but a proven Fact. It is the ONE AND ONLY UNAMBIGUOUS GRAMMAR. If Artificial Intelligence in Natural Language Processing was developed, Sanskrit is the only Language that a computer would be able to understand without a single problem. Sanskrit is the OLDEST SPOKEN/WRITTEN LANGUAGE. The Devnagri script, in which Sanskrit is written, has this special property that when letters are made from hollow tubes with openings at the end, you pump air from any end, and the alphabet will make a sound as it does when spoken! Devnagri script is still in use in Hindi. And, like told before, there are certain words in Greek/Latin, which have no legend behind them, but have one in Sanskrit.

How did the society break up? How were new cultures ever formed?
The Vedas describe the cycle of evolution of life in four yugas (epochs/era)
1. Satya Yuga or Krita Yuga (Zero Vice, No one lies, every one is spiritual)
2. Treta Yuga (Vice is introduced, Ramayana happened in this Yuga)
3. Dvapara Yuga (Vice starts gaining popularity. Mahabharata was fought in this Yuga/era. With the end of Maharabharat, this Yuga ended.)
4. Kali Yuga (Vice at its height. Immorality everywhere, and evil will be at its such heights, that Lord Shiv - The destroyer, will himself take an incarnation and end the Yuga. After that the Satya yuga will prevail.)

Now as mentioned, the Mahabharata ends, and so does the Dvapara Yuga. It's an interesting read of how Mahabharata ended. It ended with the final use of a weapon called "Brahmastra".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmastra
This weapon has been speculated to be a nuclear weapon. The way devastation has been explained, is synonymous only with a Nuclear Weapon. Also the practical detail cannot be pure fiction. Like the author says, it had power of 1000 suns, there was an incandescent column of smoke, when the bomb exploded, pottery broke miles away. Soldiers who had come in contact of radiation removed their protections and dived into water/river. Nails and hairs of soldiers fell. No one survived within a radius of many cities. There would be a famine for 12 years and mankind would end.

Apart from that, if you google a bit, you will learn that there is sufficient evidence that Indus valley civilization was wiped out by a nuclear explosion.

Hence my straight forward, simple and logical explanation of how societies divided, and everything was re-initiated from scratch.

For those who would disagree saying that this much technology was not possible then, I say, where were we 500 years back? Horse drawn chariots and swords? When we talk of a span of 7000 years at the minimum, couldn't these 500 years have happened then?
Also if you read about the Nine Unknown Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Unknown_Men) you will see, how the Sinner turned Saint (Ashoka), tried to prevent misuse of technology. I also suggest reading about the Ancient Indian Vimaans. The Indo-Europeans were indeed very much ahead in technology.

Unique facts of Hinduism
It's a very scientific religion, and has never debarred anyone from scientific research. India invented modern Mathematics (Decimal system, algebra etc). India has had the best medical science, acknowledged even today, Ayurveda. The science of Breathing, Yoga, is simply revolutionary.

> Lord Krishna makes a very rare statement in the Gita: "Time is the seed of Universe" (If there is no time, there is no universe).
Einstein loved that.

> Moksha can be achieved by three (very logical) ways:
By submitting yourself to God
By Karma (Well doing for others)
By gaining Knowledge (This one is rare.)

> God is defined as 'Sarvagya' (The one who has unlimited knowledge)
> Everything is made up of five elements. Earth Fire Water Air and Ether. The five elements are basically the five states of matter. Earth = Solid, Water = Liquid, Air = Gas, Fire = Plasma
It is well evident that they put Ether = Empty space, also as a state of matter. And that is the most authentic part of it. By the statement of Lord Krishna, we know they knew about Space-Time. As we know today, anything that occupies space in Space-Time. is a form of matter. And hence so is Ether.

This is an ad-on


This post has been edited by CaptainRon: Apr 29 2006, 07:31 PM

You know ... this is a very interesting post. I haven't been this interested in a post since a long time and I've actually read the whole thing from top to bottom .

So, in essence, you mean to say that there existed a very advanced technology and society back in the dwapara yuga. But, there is just one thing that's always confused me. How long IS a yuga? Does the Kali yuga extend all the way back to the dinosaurs? Or did it start at sometime near Asoka's rule? The haziest thing about the Yugas (I mean the part I don't understand) is that, each Yuga is supposedly one day in the life of Bramha (the god of creation) and at the end of his day, he destroys everything .... i mean EVERYTHING .... the earth, the people, the animals! Lord Vishnu (The god who sustains) selects a few people to carry on the knowledge from one yuga to the next and thus protects them (Sakula Avatar ... from the 'Ten Incarnations of Lord Vishnu' where he protects a king and the seven sages).

So, if Kali Yuga actually dates back to the dinosaurs, and that Dwapara Yuga had a completely different evolution pattern, then it's very much probable that there was a very developed society back in the time of the Mahabharat. But, it does depend on how a Yuga is. If a Yuga extends only a few thousand years, then we've just got to wonder ... 'What happened to all that technology? Why arent' there any written records of them?'

Hehe ... in school, we were lead to believe in the 'Aryan-Dravidian' theory. That all the dark complexioned South Indians were actually Dravidians and that the 'fair' North Indians are Aryans. It wasn't till I read it in a magazine couple of years ago, that this theory was taken for granted and no one even bothered to follow up on it until very recently.

Yep - extremely interesting and well-written article. I'll have to sit and ponder over it for a while Reading through this led me to do a whole bunch of Google searches.. I'll try add in some more later on.

Hmm... this is one thing even I have been wondering about. See, if we have the remains from Dvapara Yuga (Dwarka city) it cannot be that the whole of earth gets evaporated. Rather the Mahabharata is calculated (according to star positions and 13 day eclipse descriptions) to have taken place at around 3800 BC.
For the length of the Yuga's, check this link http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter19.html

Now the question is if Satya Yuga is described to be 1,728,000 years long. Now that seems pretty impossible in present day science concept. But yes, if you notice, the Yuga's period decreases by Kali Yuga. To this, I would like to point you to a very usefull scientific claim, "The Speed of Light (which is a constant) was never the same throughout the evolution of Universe. It was 10000 times the speed of light right now when Earth was concieved. And it has been gradually decreasing". This claim would ease the Yuga descriptions, since we ofcourse know that the Space-Time rests on the speed of light. The whole Theory of Relativity is based on light and its speed. Now God knows in what terms are the Yuga periods proposed. Maybe they present it in the terms of Time of beginning of earth.



Hell! havent you read about the Vaimanika Shastra, The aeronautics Manual? That's just one part. We have Saubhika Shastra, The flight manual of ancient Vimaans. Thats just the tip of the ice berg. Sanskrit documents have been found in Tibet that describe the technology of anti-gravity. See, there is loads simply hidden away from us.



That's a f*cking diplomatic lie. A Times of India clearly stated that north indians and dravidians are both sun tanned version of the caucassian race and this is genetically researched.

will write more soon.

This is a rather interesting site. I'm gonna read up more on this tonight.

Now, coming to the earlier topic of discussion about Dwaraka ... see, at the end of every yuga, (from what I remember), Bramha starts the dissolution of everything. Supposedly the earth will be submerged under water and all the creatures will perish. That's when he creates 'Manu' or the first man and his progeny will continue to populate the earth. Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is what I remember from childhood.

I'm not sure if this includes the destruction of the earth too, because the earth is considered to have a spirit and is known as 'Mother' Earth (remeber Varaha Avatar where Lord Vishnu saves the Earth from a Rakshasa).

Or maybe it's possible that the Dwaraka that was found might not even be Krishna's Dwaraka, but some another city that got submerged later.



I haven't read about them. I haven't even HEARD about them. Forgive me, I'm a bit dense on stuff like this, but I'm trying to learn and understand .

How come we don't even hear about this stuff. It's not just me, but there are many people who have no idea about these scientific Sanskrit records. Are these still in existence or have they been destroyed? Are there any English translations of them (I have absolutely no knowledge of Sanskrit)? Why are these stuff hidden away from us? If they've been found, there are quite a large number of Sanskrit scholars in India and abroad also who can decipher the stuff. If advanced technologies like anti-gravity are mentioned in these documents, why aren't people working on them?

If you read H.C. Verma's 'Concepts of Physics', there is a particular chapter in which he describes that the speed of light has been accurately defined in terms of 'Yojanas' which when converted to light years, comes very close to the present day accepted value of 3e8 m/s. Fine ... where's the rest of the stuff? If it's in publication, I'd definitely want to read it. In fact, I'd like to tell people about it. People take the Western Technology to be a forerunner without even giving a thought to the ancient genius that was prevelant in the Indian Sub-continent when the West was still living in caves and hunting with rocks and stones.



Which is the lie? The Aryan-Dravidian thing or the fact that that's what I was taught to believe in my 6th standard?

From what I remember, back in the early 1900s, there was a British explorer who discovered the Harappan ruins and the Indus Valley Civilization (with a 'z' and not 's' ) and then and there postulated the Aryan-Dravidian thing that Dravidians were the original settlers and Aryans were the invaders who pushed them down South. This was a largely accepted fact till recently when further research was done to prove that this was all bull-s***.

This post has been edited by abhiram: Apr 30 2006, 02:41 AM

Yeah I think you are rite with that. But that may not be necessarily the end of every Yuga. For the end of Dvapara Yuga, the end was with Brahmastra and ofcourse, a Nuclear winter (if it indeed was a Nuclear weapon), and it will also justify the 12 Year famine fact.



Well, why we don't here all these things is simply the effect of British Rule on India. No, its not that they suppressed it, we cannot blaim the Western countries. They have been more interested in the Indian History. British/American Sanskrit scholars have written their own deciphered versions. And there are English translations of many.
About why we don't read them and implement them, the problem is we don't know their science. When they talk of an element used to create the engine of the aircraft or its body, we simply can't decipher what it means in today's science.
However here is an interesting read of one attempt to recreate the Vimaan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivkar_Bapuji_Talpade
Check this more recent article about "Stealth from Shastra" on my site. http://www.worldaviation.info/content/view/54/49/

I didnt know about the HC Verma book! never prepared for IIT But thats KEWL!

One more thing, as I have been claiming in this article, the current Caucassian race and the current Indian race were one during the Dvapara yuga, and probably even before that. So technically, we cannot say that the americans were living in caves when we were flourishing.


When I said about the diplomatic lie, it was for both, the Aryan invasion theory as well as the Dravidian-North indian concept. See, when Britishers started speaking Hindi, they realised that loads of words were similar to their own language. I will just list the core words of English and their Sanskrit/Hindi equivalents.

English Sanskrit
-------- ----------
Mother Maatru
Father Pitra/Pither (Papa comes from this)
Brother Bhraatu
Name Naam
I am Aham
That Tat
is Ah(uh)
My mum (Hindi: mera)
Young Yuv
so so (so is same in both english and hindi/sanskrit e.g. Jo karna hai so karo)
Man Manav/Manushya
Create Kriya/Crea (In englishe we add 'ate' to whatever we want to convert into noun-verb, like elongate, deviate etc)

English has many vocubalary based words derived from languages like Latin/Greek, but the fact remains that the Core Words (the words learnt when you begin to grow) are from Sanskrit.

Some vocubalary based words:

Dexterity Dakshta
Progress Pragati
Existence Astitva
Exist Asti
Punch Paanch/Punch (Punch is same in English and Sanskrit meaning 5)
juggernaut JagannAth (Hindi), literally, lord of the world (right)- Massive inexorable force, or an object that crushes whatever is in its path.
Grammar based similarities:

I read many, but can't remember a lot except the suffix 'ic'. It is absolutely same in Hindi, Sanskrit and English.
In english we say Sporadic, Fantastic, Idiotic etc etc...
Similarly in Sanskrit we say Prodyougic, Kaalpanic, Aarthic etc etc
One word that emerges same from both the Languages (that I can remember) is Vedic. Its same in Sanskrit/Hindi and English.

With this they knew that either the Indians came from them, or they came from the Indians. After discovering so many other places and monuments which were older than any other thing in Britain, the British were sure that it had to be them comming from the Indians. But due to egoistic problems, they could not digest the fact that they came from India originaly. After the discovery of Indus valley (harappa and mohen jo daro) they had a solid base on which they could rest the Aryan Invasion Theory.
They created a 50/50 story and said that Aryans originated from Central Asia/East Europe. Little did they realise that a German psycho would take it so seriously that he would superiorize himself with the Aryan theory. Hitler, although hated dark skinned people, but somehow was very positive towards the Indian. Even their Madam Blavatsky started the Theosophical society in India. Apart from that, in the Olympics of '36, when Dhyaan Chand played hockey for India, he played so wonderful that no one even compared to him in the game. India won the Gold Medal, but little known is the fact that when Hitler saw dhyaan chand play, he kept muttering to his general, "Now thats a true Aryan blood! Invincible!".

India won the world cup, Hitler bought his Hockey stick and offered him german citizen ship with a very high post in the Army. Though he declined.
Anyway, the point is, lots of things got entangled in Ego, Superiority complex, and psychopath. So all in all, the research in Aryans etc has become tainted now. People are no more interested in researching it anymore. Dwarka has been totally neglected by the West, and so has been the ancient city of Arkaim (Russia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim
Russian Archeologists have themselves confirmed that it wasn't in Russia where the Aryans evolved. It was from South that they came north.
But everything has been preoccupied by the Max Muller concept.

This has been a very good read, albeit a short one, it has provided me enough info to accept Hinduism as a major religion. If only the Indians would do more than just inject silly dancing and singing in their movies, my interest would push me further.

Hmm ... yea, I guess that's a good point. As it's mentioned in your link of World Aviation, you'd need a person well versed in Sanskrit as well as proficient in Mathematics, Aeronautics and Physics to a certain level of competence to be able to comprehend what it actually means.


My bad . But I don't think HC Verma intended for the book to be used solely for IIT Preparation!


Oh right. You did mention that. And at the end of the Dwapara Yuga, the Bramhastra destroyed all existence and life started again. But still, aren't most records of Scientific literature and temples and stuff which date back to the time of Mahabharata and the Indus Valley Civilization found only in the Indian sub-continent? Why isn't there even a trace of such a civilization in any place other than India?

Also, how does this theory fit in with the other ancient civilizations like Mesopotamia? They don't have any similarities with the ancient Indians.


Yea, I think you may be right about that. It's a shame really. I guess we can only theorize what happened.

You're right about the German thing though. I remember reading somewhere about the Germans claiming to be a true Aryan race or something, but don't remember where.

@Opethian


If Indians started making movies solely on Hinduism and ancient Indian history, how many Indians do you think will watch those movies. Movies are mostly meant for recreation and that's what people expect them to be. Of course, in the dawn of Indian Cinema, many movies were made about the epics Mahabharat and Ramayana (in Black and White of course) but then slowly, as cinema progressed, times changed.

Hinduism is an ancient religion. As CaptainRon mentioned, the principles of Hinduism today were in effect even before it came to be known specifically as 'Hinduism'. Hinduism isn't as popular as Christianity because it isn't organised like the Catholic Church is. Nor do Hindus go about saying 'In Hinduism lies salvation'. The only large organisation is the ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) but you don't have to be a Hindu to be a part of it. The ISKCON is more about global human values and the teachings of the Gita which are applicable to anyone as a human being.

Since I already said, that at those times, the European lands were suffering from Ice Age cold snaps, India was the best place to live in, in Asia/Europe. Middle east doesn't have any major vegetation or rivers, so cultivation wouldn't have been very flourishing there. India had Saraswati, Indu and Ganga, the most cultivable river beds of their time.

As I said, Europeans were not known with the term 'Europeans'. They were the same as us. Groups split and moved northwards, eastwards etc. after the end.

Also, I must bring to your notice, the Zoroastrian book of Avesta, bears 90% similarty to Vedas. Only the script is different, even lingual terms are same. Some one who has researched a lot on this told me, that in Avestan texts, replace 'h' with 's' and 's' with 'j', and what you get is the Vedas.

Avesta is a near sister preaching of the Vedas. However, the nature of the Indus Valley is under scrutiny. As of now, not very interesting Vedic similarities have been found. It appears to be the only puzzle as of now. It dates as old as the end of dvapar yug. did it exist before or after? were those people different from the mainland indians? are indians really immigrants from the north who destroyed Indus Valley? Why the hell would Aryans destroy the Indus Valley??? They would instead Aryanize the whole place. They would have started living in those cities and rather converted all the people to Vedic. Plus, as u must have read, Indus Valley has signs of Nuclear destruction.
It's not easy to answer all these questions. You know after reading, researching such stuff, Archeology seems to be better than computer science. ;-)

And yeah Abhi, here is a link to the English translations and research of the Ancient Vaimanika Shastra: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books



Hinduism was always a major religion, Opethian. It's the third most popular religion after Christianity and Islam, and with the current population growth rate of India, it will soon be at no.2
Anyway, thousands of Americans/Europeans are here in India, who have dedicated their rest of the life to Hinduism (aka Peace of mind). Actually you can't convert to Hinduism (like you have in other religions). Either you are a born Hindu, or not a Hindu. Recently there was a controversy on a European believing in Hinduism, denied entry in a temple. Lets see where the conversion-to-hinduism discussion lead to.
Talking about the movies, unfortunately you must have seen the selected bad collection :-p . Hindi movies are popular world wide. They are more popular in the Middle East/Israel/Pakistan/Afghanistan etc than Hollywood. They have always been a sensation in Russia. Certain Indian Actors have been immortalized in Russia. Why don't you watch the Oscar nominated Lagaan? its available in translations on p2p networks (ed2k).

This post has been edited by CaptainRon: Apr 30 2006, 08:10 PM

I see your point but unfortunately, I don't see the logic of having the majority of movies have the same theme, which is the same-voiced women and dance numbers the size of Chicago (The Musical) in an exponential sense! It's one of those things that, you'd have to be an Indian to understand, I guess. Same goes for the Chinese and their martial arts, it's overkill!

But I'm getting off topic, my apologies.